The pros and cons of rebuilding your own regulators...

[Iguana Don]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Zeagle
Apeks (Zeagle)
Sherwood
Cressi Sub
Genesis
Ocean Reef

Apeks (Zeagle)?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Iguana Don once bubbled...




Apeks (Zeagle)?

Apeks regulators were sold under the Zeagle name until a couple years ago. I am authorized to service those regulators through Zeagle. I get the parts through Zeagle. When Zeagles parts dry up I will no longer be able to support the divers who bought regulators from me.

 

[Iguana Don]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Chambley]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Apeks regulators were sold under the Zeagle name until a couple years ago. I am authorized to service those regulators through Zeagle. I get the parts through Zeagle. When Zeagles parts dry up I will no longer be able to support the divers who bought regulators from me.

Mike,

Speaking of Zeagles once being manufactured by Apeks, I have a couple of 10-year-old Beuchat VX 10's. I think these were probably manufactured by Apeks, looking at the technical drawings for some of the Apeks regs they look very similar. Would you know if this is true?

Beuchat parts seem to be very hard to find much less finding them and reasonable person that will part with them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Chambley once bubbled...


Mike,

Speaking of Zeagles once being manufactured by Apeks, I have a couple of 10-year-old Beuchat VX 10's. I think these were probably manufactured by Apeks, looking at the technical drawings for some of the Apeks regs they look very similar. Would you know if this is true?

Beuchat parts seem to be very hard to find much less finding them and reasonable person that will part with them.

Sorry I don't know the answer to that.

 

[o2scuba]

Genisis said:

"for Scubapro regulators can be had from Peterbilt for right around $100, including the second stage inline adjuster (not really NECESSARY, but nice to have), an IP gauge (easily made for under $20 from a pressure gauge and BC inflator hose adapter, or you can buy them for $30-35 or so), and the bullets and wrenches you need to get it apart and back together without damaging things. There is no secret on buying them nor any code-word - you just need money. Oh, you DO need a quality set of hand tools, and that INCLUDES a torque wrench. I already own that stuff though (two sets actually, one on my boat!) so the incremental cost there was zero."



You forgot the most important tool, the ultrasonic cleaning machine.
Perhaps the most expensive of the NESSESSARY tools. There is no other way to properly clean parts (salt or fresh water divers).



"Now given that an "overhaul" costs $60 or so for a first and second, you only have to work on your reg TWICE for it to be worth it."

You only have to screw up once to make that $60 worth it. Actually $60 is pretty cheap, they are either losing money or skipping something.




"And trust me - NOBODY cares more about it being done right than you do!"

Wrong again, our lawyers care a hell of a lot more than you do.




"An awful lot of the time the so-called "must replace" parts aren't. It does take care to know what needs to be replaced and what doesn't. "



guess they could have saved a lot of time in the lab doing tests if they'd just called you. Fact is you cannot tell simply by looking that oring may be at the early stages of break down.

One of the reasons that there are less incidents caused by reg failure today is because we now know where failures are likely and replace those parts EVERY TIME the reg is serviced. We are talking about pennies here. The entire service kit is less than $15 in most cases.
Matter of fact, nearly every time equipment failure IS the cause of an accident, it is because someone tried to service their own gear (not just my opinion, but statistics)





Remember folks, we can eisily tell if you have been servicing your own gear. So don't come crying for warranties after you've messed with it yourself. Don't expect a replacement if you don't have DOCUMENTATION of a regular service record by a QUALIFIED technician. Ive seen it a hundred times. The next thing people usually say (once they realize THEY are in the wrong) is: "Well fine, guess I'll take MY business elsewhere in the future." Hoping to get satisfaction by threat. (my thoughts) Go ahead, we won't miss you.

A lot of people make references to their LDS ( I assume you mean Local Dive Store). This may be one of the reasons for dissattified service. You should be going to your local LDC (local dive center) there is a HUGE difference between a dive store and a dive center. Not just in the name, but what is offered. To much to go into on a "regulator" thread. That might be a whole new thread.

Although it is sad that so many so called "professionals" do a lousy job providing service. The same is true of mechanics, doctors, lawyers, plumbers or any paid professional.

One has to accept the blame a little for keeping these places in business. One sure way to keep the trend is for divers to keep making decisions with their wallets.



And by the way Genisis, Just a little friendly advise. If you plan to advise people on how to service regs, you should get yourself some liability insurance, someday you'll need it. You may actually convince some people out there to try it. I would hate to have to say I told you so at such a cost, someones life!!!

 

[joens]

the reason most people want to service their own equipment is usually either some shop somewhere screwed up their equipment or because they travel or live where there is not a shop nearby.
joens

 

[redacted]

No. Of course not. What successful business would ever miss a customer? What this market needs is for the bad LDSs (and LDCs) to fold up and stop taking business away from the good ones. Then we should all be able to enjoy competetive prices and service without the coersions and deceptions like this. The one about the lawyer caring more than the DIYer was the anchor on this line of BS.

o2scuba once bubbled...
Genisis said:

"for Scubapro regulators can be had from Peterbilt for right around $100, including the second stage inline adjuster (not really NECESSARY, but nice to have), an IP gauge (easily made for under $20 from a pressure gauge and BC inflator hose adapter, or you can buy them for $30-35 or so), and the bullets and wrenches you need to get it apart and back together without damaging things. There is no secret on buying them nor any code-word - you just need money. Oh, you DO need a quality set of hand tools, and that INCLUDES a torque wrench. I already own that stuff though (two sets actually, one on my boat!) so the incremental cost there was zero."



You forgot the most important tool, the ultrasonic cleaning machine.
Perhaps the most expensive of the NESSESSARY tools. There is no other way to properly clean parts (salt or fresh water divers).



"Now given that an "overhaul" costs $60 or so for a first and second, you only have to work on your reg TWICE for it to be worth it."

You only have to screw up once to make that $60 worth it. Actually $60 is pretty cheap, they are either losing money or skipping something.




"And trust me - NOBODY cares more about it being done right than you do!"

Wrong again, our lawyers care a hell of a lot more than you do.




"An awful lot of the time the so-called "must replace" parts aren't. It does take care to know what needs to be replaced and what doesn't. "



guess they could have saved a lot of time in the lab doing tests if they'd just called you. Fact is you cannot tell simply by looking that oring may be at the early stages of break down.

One of the reasons that there are less incidents caused by reg failure today is because we now know where failures are likely and replace those parts EVERY TIME the reg is serviced. We are talking about pennies here. The entire service kit is less than $15 in most cases.
Matter of fact, nearly every time equipment failure IS the cause of an accident, it is because someone tried to service their own gear (not just my opinion, but statistics)





Remember folks, we can eisily tell if you have been servicing your own gear. So don't come crying for warranties after you've messed with it yourself. Don't expect a replacement if you don't have DOCUMENTATION of a regular service record by a QUALIFIED technician. Ive seen it a hundred times. The next thing people usually say (once they realize THEY are in the wrong) is: "Well fine, guess I'll take MY business elsewhere in the future." Hoping to get satisfaction by threat. (my thoughts) Go ahead, we won't miss you.

A lot of people make references to their LDS ( I assume you mean Local Dive Store). This may be one of the reasons for dissattified service. You should be going to your local LDC (local dive center) there is a HUGE difference between a dive store and a dive center. Not just in the name, but what is offered. To much to go into on a "regulator" thread. That might be a whole new thread.

Although it is sad that so many so called "professionals" do a lousy job providing service. The same is true of mechanics, doctors, lawyers, plumbers or any paid professional.

One has to accept the blame a little for keeping these places in business. One sure way to keep the trend is for divers to keep making decisions with their wallets.



And by the way Genisis, Just a little friendly advise. If you plan to advise people on how to service regs, you should get yourself some liability insurance, someday you'll need it. You may actually convince some people out there to try it. I would hate to have to say I told you so at such a cost, someones life!!!

 

[The Chairman]

which manufacturer or LDC do you work for? Protectionism is fine, but you should be up front with who you work for so that won't be so obscured.

You are right... an ultrasonic cleaner is an absolute neccesity. I won't do other's regs since I do not own one yet. That being said, most of the shops/centers in my area do not own one. "We just soak it in this here stuff!" is the all to common answer. Some even use Simple Green, and will continue to use it even after I point out how bad it is for regs.

However, you are wrong when you say the lawyers care more about how the reg works more than the user. No, they are just concerned with limiting the liability when it does malfunction on a 130' duve. No more, no less. The end user is the only person to stake their life on whether their reg works properly or not. Do I take better care of my regs when I rebuild them??? Yes, and I DO stake my life on that.

You are also right about replacing all of the o-rings, etc. Unfortunately, most shops/centers will do the very least they can get away with. Things like using the old O-Ring on a tank inspection, not replacing the teeny tiny o-rings on the SPG during a full overhaul are all too common and they make people like myself incredibly distrustful of people like you.

Yes, we are the problem children. The LDS/LDC does not want to chase us away, but we are constantly solving issues for their customers and their customers are slowly learning that sometimes its best to do it yourself. My LDS just recently commented that there were more tanks in their shop inspected by me, than by them. Go figure. I do it for free and do a far superior job than they do. I am even PSI certified to do it, while they aren't! Ain't that a hoot!

As for the shop/center debate... there might be a huge conceptual difference in your mind, but in reality it is only a name. There is no difference legally. There is no difference in attitude. Each shop/center must stand on it's own. Quality is oh so hard to find and even harder to instill in a work force.

 

[o2scuba]

NetDoc once bubbled...
which manufacturer or LDC do you work for? Protectionism is fine, but you should be up front with who you work for so that won't be so obscured."

??? Clafify please. The only people I am attempting to protect are the divers who may be mislead into attempting to service their own regs. No I don't work for a manufacturer, or LDS or
LDC. The people I work for are divers like you. I am being very clear and nothing is "obscured".

"You are right... an ultrasonic cleaner is an absolute neccesity. I won't do other's regs since I do not own one yet. That being said, most of the shops/centers in my area do not own one. "We just soak it in this here stuff!" is the all to common answer. Some even use Simple Green, and will continue to use it even after I point out how bad it is for regs. "

I know I am right, don't need you to tell me, but thanks for your gracious approval. You live in an area with many, many dive STORES. I am not surprised that a lot of them don't use ultrasonic cleaners during reg service. Your statement that "most do not own one" is based on YOUR experience. Fact is many of them do. I am not limited to a specific area as you are. My experience (all over the world) has proven that with a little research, you can find a qualtity dive CENTER almost anywhere.

"However, you are wrong when you say the lawyers care more about how the reg works more than the user. No, they are just concerned with limiting the liability when it does malfunction on a 130' duve. No more, no less."

My point exactly. YOU are expendable, the LDCs are not. Lawyers are paid a lot of money writing contracts, service agreements, etc. If the LDC goes out of business, they lose money(lawyers). As long as the job is done properly, the LDCs are not going to be accountable.

"The end user is the only person to stake their life on whether their reg works properly or not. Do I take better care of my regs when I rebuild them??? Yes, and I DO stake my life on that. "

No you don't do a better job, you don't even use the ultrasonic cleaner.

"You are also right about replacing all of the o-rings, etc. Unfortunately, most shops/centers will do the very least they can get away with. Things like using the old O-Ring on a tank inspection, not replacing the teeny tiny o-rings on the SPG during a full overhaul are all too common and they make people like myself incredibly distrustful of people like you. "

Your condecending and judgemental statements lead me to believe that YOUR trust is not something that really matters to me. You are not my target audience since you do not give quality LDCs any business. You obviously associate with the "fly-by-nighters" who are the very cause of your distrust. Fact is, as I said before we do replace the "tiny o rings" on the spool assembly. We aslo replace EVERY hose o ring and clean the metal hose ends in the ultrasonic cleaner. Hell we even lube the compass bezel with silicone spray, as well as the BC quick connect.

I am sorry to hear that you have had bad experience with less than quality operators. However, I would expect that this would make you MORE TRUSTFUL OF "PEOPLE LIKE ME" , the ones who do the job right. Ever hire a lousy plumber? If it was not for his lousy work, you would not be able to appreciate the fine workmanship of a qualified craftsman. So please, lighten up on the generazlizations.

"Yes, we are the problem children. The LDS/LDC does not want to chase us away, but we are constantly solving issues for their customers"

Who is we?- people like you who think that their limited experience qualifies them to teach diving, or service regs? You are no different than the ones you complain about, trying to do the job without the proper training or experience.

"and their customers are slowly learning that sometimes its best to do it yourself. My LDS just recently commented that there were more tanks in their shop inspected by me, than by them. Go figure. I do it for free and do a far superior job than they do. I am even PSI certified to do it, while they aren't! Ain't that a hoot! "

If you do it free, I suspect they are getting their moneys worth.

"As for the shop/center debate... there might be a huge conceptual difference in your mind, but in reality it is only a name. There is no difference legally. There is no difference in attitude. Each shop/center must stand on it's own. Quality is oh so hard to find and even harder to instill in a work force.

"


HERE HERE, I agree in todays world quality may take a little effort to find. Same is true in ANY business from diving to hair salons.

Its not just a "name" fact is there is a big difference. Only a true quality Dive CENTER knows the difference. Trying to explain it to you would be like trying to deascribe the color red to a blind man.


Harsh truth, with respect,

Andrew

Edited so the response wasn't mixed in with the quote - spectre