The pros and cons of rebuilding your own regulators...

[The Chairman]

or simple delusion. Like I said... there is no legal difference between shop and center except the name. It is mostly philosophical in nature and very little of that philosophy ever crystallizes into anything more than rhetoric. It is a mere corporate buzz word, like "empowering" or "inclusion". It’s great as a tool or for inspiring the worker bees, but does little to impress me. That you can't verbalize it only lends credence to this.

As for retail and understanding it, I spent way too long in that field, Chester. In your haste to impugn my eyesight, you underestimated my other senses... especially the one called common. “It’s like explaining red to a blind man” indeed... too funny. Delusional… but too funny!

BTW, when you quote... don't do it for the whole post... its right above yours. Delete all but the salient points you want to talk about.

BTW #2… you never did fess up about who you worked for or owned.

 

[Genesis]

Never mind that my challenge stands, unanswered:

I will pay you to service my regulator WHEN:

1. You sign, before taking the reg for service, a document that (a) holds you PERSONALLY and SEVERABLY liable if you screw up - no lawyers, no BS, no games. Your entire net worth and your earnings for the next 100 years are the property of my progeny if you kill me at 100' as a consequence of your mistake.

2. You show me that your "dive shop's" organization is NOT designed to evade financial responsibility for mistakes. The document in (1) above thus must include the shop and its owners, personally and corporately.


Oh, you're not willing to do that?

Gee, how's that?

You don't TRUST your own work? You don't BELIEVE that you're going to do it correctly with a sufficient degree of certainty that you're willing to put your LIVELIHOOD and WEALTH on the line, but you want me to bet my LIFE on your representations and claims?

I think that says everything that needs to be said.

 

[TCDiver1]

JMO

Again, there is only a modicum of truth in your post. No one, performing what would could be commonly considered less than diligent work, is protected by law in any state i'm aware of. I'm sure a smart guy like you is familiar with the term "due diligence."
Sleep well tonite, your progeny is well protected.

Why do you need another document to protect yourself? Do you ask the same from your car dealer/servicer, your boat dealer/servicer? Your utilities providers? Better look into covering yourself with Mother Nature, those hurricanes and lightning can be a real *itch.

Your world must be a pretty cool place to live where honest mistakes and accidents don't exist. And if they do occur, you will own the poor saps who had the misfortune of doing business with you.

 

[Genesis]

The point being that those "dive shop" folks who claim superior technology and technique, and preach doom and gloom for those of us who maintain our own gear, won't put their money where their mouth is.

As for negligence and liability, yes, you can indeed sue. Not that there's much to get in many cases. That's the point of corporate structure - shielding the owners and their staff from direct, personal liability.

In fact, there is no other point, really. Corporations are saddled with additional regulations and tax burdens that proprietorships do not suffer from.

So why do it?

To avoid personal responsibility for their acts - that's why.

Now this may be a reasonable thing in many cases.

But is it reasonable in THIS case?

Maybe.

But it points out the BLATENT hypocrisy of those who scream about me doing my own regulator, and preach doom and gloom scenarios if I do.

The naked truth remains gedunk:

Nobody cares more than I do that my regulator works properly. After all, its my azz down there at 100' breathing off it.

Any so-called "professional" who wants to claim that they care MORE than I do, and that they will take MORE care than I will, should be prepared to put on the line the exact same thing, or as close to it is is possible, what I do when I work on my own gear.

Since I cannot ask someone to put their LIFE on the line (as I do), the next best thing is for them to put their LIVELIHOOD and WEALTH on the line.

No insurance, no games, no hiding behind corporate shields.

After all, I don't have any of that. If I blow it, I die.

How come, for those who think they can do SO MUCH better of a job than I, they won't put FAR LESS - the wealth of themselves and their families - on the line to back up their bluster?

The answer is simple gedunk:

They're prevaricating, and attempting to use FEAR as a means of driving their business.

As Daffy has been known to say.....

That's despicable.

 

[TCDiver1]

Genesis once bubbled...

The answer is simple gedunk:

They're prevaricating, and attempting to use FEAR as a means of driving their business.

As Daffy has been known to say.....

That's despicable.

Thats the part of your point i agree with. Personally, i shudder in both directions when i think of some the LDS owners i know and divers i know both servicing their regs. I'm all for personal accountability but some divers or LDS owners just should not be doing this type of work IMO. But hey, it's not a perfect world.

 

[Genesis]

the entire point that I'm making, gedunk.

While I'm sure there are auto mechanics who will try to tell me that I shouldn't be doing my own brakes, the fact remains that I can go over to the local Autozone and buy myself a set of pads, and at many of them, I can even take the rotors in to have them turned in an hour or so.

And if I screw THAT job up, its not just my car and myself that I wreck. Its pretty likely that I'll hit someone else if my brakes suddenly decide to stop working.

The truth of the entire matter here is that this gear is pretty intrinsically safe. Oh sure, you can hurt (or kill) yourself monkeying around with it. But its hardly rocket science.

If it was, you couldn't get a reg rebuilt for $50.

As we've been talking about here, most shops don't even own the suggested (by the manufacturer!) tools. No torque wrench, for instance. And most of them consider an "overhaul" to be just slapping in an annual parts kit.

Of course, for the labor charges accrued, could you expect more? Probably not.

When the sanctimonious preaching starts, that's when I get my feathers ruffled. The simple fact of the matter is that this gear is designed to be easily serviced and to be safe even when corners are cut - lots of them. That the "slap in the parts kit" overhauls are ACCEPTABLE to the manufacturers says pretty loudly that the kind of care that ought to go into a precision assembly isn't considered necessary by the very people who design and build the things!

The sanctimony is nothing more than an attempt to coerce people to spend money and control a marketplace by fear. Its grossly inappropriate.

I do agree, however, that many - perhaps even most - divers should probably not be in their regulators, valves and other equipment. On the other hand there are a lot of so-called "techs" that shouldn't be either! The trouble is that the consumer who is not competent to do his or her own gear he has no way to judge whether the tech or shop is any good!

 

[joens]

In an automotive dealership you never see the owner or salesman repairing cars . Why do very few LDS hire techs to do repairs instead of having an instructor or divemaster do it .
Joens

 

[Scuba]

A couple of you have mentioned that ultrasonic cleaning is a necessity, why? Please explain.

If I'm going to take my regulator for regular service. Can you guys give me a list of all necessary points that should be covered by a qualified "technician", to help seperate the good from the bad.

All O-rings? for example.

 

[Genesis]

Ultrasonics - because there are places on a reg (like the grooves where an O-ring seats) that are nearly impossible to get completely clean with manual methods (e.g. toothbrush). Ultrasonics clean even in places you can't see. The only trick is that ultrasonics, when used with various cleaners (particularly alkaline and acid-based cleaning agents) can get WAY harsh and damage materials (like taking the chrome off brass in the case of acids!) An ultrasonic unit is pretty much mandatory for cleaning any high-precision, small part where you can't use strong solvents if you care about the results, and sometimes even when you CAN use them.

Replacement parts: Generally speaking, any dynamic O-ring should be replaced. Static O-rings DO NOT normally need to be replaced UNLESS they have taken a set or are damaged. However, many people just replace 'em all - its easier than inspecting all the old ones closely enough to know if there is any checking, deformation, etc. High pressure seats in firsts and the seats in seconds often are replaced as a matter of course, but whether they truly need it on every overhaul is open to question.

In general an overhaul is all about cleaning, inspection, and replacement of any suspect, damaged, or wear-item parts, followed by verification (testing)

Just throwing in a parts kit DOES NOT qualify. No way, no how.

Yet that is OFTEN what you will get.

Part of the reason is time constraints. The guy charges you $50 to do both seconds and a first, plus (maybe, depending on brand) parts - he's not putting a lot of time into it.

One of the problems with that approach is that if there is a problem with a surface on which a dynamic O-ring rides, for example, just replacing the O-ring without inspecting the surface on which it rides will not discover the fault. The consequence is that the replaced O-ring fails sooner than it should, because there is damage to its sealing surface.

Doing it right takes TIME. I do not believe you can strip, clean, replace parts and re-assemble a first, second and octo, plus tune the latter two, in less than a couple of hours. Not if you're being truly careful about it and doing it right.

BTW, the "overhaul" parts kit for some seconds (specifically basic downstream regs like the SP R190/R380 series) is literally a half-dozen items - a couple of O-rings, a new locknut for the lever and a seat.

 

[redacted]

Scuba once bubbled...
A couple of you have mentioned that ultrasonic cleaning is a necessity, why? Please explain.

After all, Scuba diving goes back a bit further than ultrasonic cleaners. I'm sure it is a useful tool and probably to the point where the customer should expect the LDS to have it. But this DIYer is content without one.

I pay attention to keep the elements out from places they should not be. That which does slip by and leaves deposits on metal surfaces seems to clean quite adequately with the careful use of a diluted acid bath. Non-metalic parts clean OK with detergent and soft cleaning tools.

I'm just not convinced that it is a "necessity" for my tool kit.