The paying Volunteer subject, continued...

[CODMAN]

Sorry, but I just wanted to answer the last post about UCMEs "volunteer" program, but I didn't want to highjack the original thread any more. So I'll try to answer in this thread... If the moderator thinks this is out of place, well feel free to delete it...

I'd just like to say that I have nothing against your non-profit organisation or the work you are doing. I hope it is research based and will help in durable development of Utila.

As I've stated before, the only problem I have is with your use of the word Volunteer to describe the applicants for your programs. You say "what's wrong with them paying to cover the costs for the program"? Well, 600 pounds for 2 weeks certainly doesn,t seem like they are "covering the costs" They are covering the costs and then some... OK, the profit might be going towards financing local programs, but still these people are probably paying more than what it costs in order to spend time working for you over there. At least if the charges were minimal... But I honnestly don't consider 600 pounds minimal... It's the price of a vacation!

So you are basically selling them the fantasy of the Marine Biologist in order to finance your work. Which I don't really have a problem with if you are straight foreward about this when you advertise! But to add a more catchy term than "Science vacation" or "working science vacation", you use the term "Volunteer"!

In my books (and this I guess is a question of each persons definition), a Volunteer is someone who gives their time to help advance a good cause with limited funds. An example might be a neighbour who agrees to come help you paint your house on a saturday he is not at work! But when a neighbour agrees to help you paint, do you ask him to buy a case of beer and a few pizzas also? No you don't! Some people might not have enough money to buy beer and pizza to thank their volunteering neighbour (and that's undertsandable), but you don,t ask them to pay for that on top of giving their free time! I don't think that's right... And that's what you are doing! You're asking for volunteers to not only donate their time, but also pay you to let them do it...

Now this said, once again, I don't have a problem with people paying to go there and participate in a science orientated vacation where they learn stuff and participate. But they are clients (since they are paying) and not Volunteers! In my oppinion, the use of the term Volunteer in this context is misleading and playing on peoples "generous instincts" and "desire to help agood cause" in order to attract more customers.

I'm sorry, but this is how I see it no matter how I look at it! I feel the "sales pitch" you (and many others) use to attract people isn't totally honnest in it's approach. Still, whatever I think, I hope you are able to help in the sustainable development of Utila and the preservation of the reefs there!

Sincerely,

 

[sand diver]

Codman, to summarise one of your points, you disagree with the word “volunteer” when they are paying more then covering the costs. I have to say I do agree with you, but the costs do add up, especially when involving diving. Someone has to pay for tanks, boats, equipment, etc. And how does the person who is training, supervising, taking the liability, working full time with volunteers, get paid? Is this “a cost” to be covered? Yes, the cost is equal to the cost of a vacation, but that is becoming a huge industry- Ecotourism.

And I do agree that some of the larger conservation companies use the word “volunteer” a little too liberally to sell their product, if they are not honestly doing some good. The definition of Volunteer is “person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily” not somebody who works for free but gets costs covered.

the use of the term Volunteer in this context is misleading and playing on peoples "generous instincts" and "desire to help agood cause" in order to attract more customers.

Yes, the word “volunteer” does play on people “desire to help a good cause” because that is indeed what they are doing. At the end of the day the data a “volunteer” is collecting is helping the community. The term “science vacation” is too light and does not display the importance of the work. The word “client” gives connotations of that person calling the shots whereas to make a project effective it has to be well structured with a degree of “clients” conforming to it, not the other way around.

Perhaps with the education they are gaining from a conservation project, be it anything from a greater understanding of the marine environment to diving skills, it is worth the money and time they are spending. Don’t forget there is also the demand from people considering a career in biological science to get hands on experience outside of the lab! And for them the skills learnt, the interaction with communities and the reef are invaluable life changing experiences- priceless!

 

[Doc]

I think it's a great topic for discussion.

But let me see if I have the numbers right. figuring it at 1 UK GBP = $2 (or so)

The Utila operation Volunteer with Utila Centre for Marine Ecology charges about $600 a week, but they really don't say how much diving you'll really get.

Here's another one on Cayos Cochinos that charges $1250 a week for your help. Coral reef conservation holiday in Honduras. World's best responsible & ecotourism holidays

How's the Dolphin Research Institute over at AKR doing? (The seem to have dropped that name long ago in favor of RIMS) Spend 1/2 hour away from your cruise ship with flipper for $70. At the weekly rate, that would be... well... a whole lot of money.

Kids have written here for time to time in search of advice on the Coral Cay Coservancy Coral Cay Conservation Project, volunteering, diving at $700

But not one of them really lays out the number of dives you will make after being suitably trained by the scientists. They all mention dive training and they seem to be talking about re-acquiring dormant basic skills.

About $900 is what any "all you can dive" AI would charge. I would assume that most AI's are a bit fancier rooms, though.

I'd say- send them the money instead. Leave less of a carbon footprint.

But hey- everyone has to have a job, right?

 

[CODMAN]

I agree with some of your points sand. But when someone goes out of their way to help you, makes sacrifices for you, do you turn around and try to make a profit off of them? Even if the profit is going to a good cause, I don't think this is right... Charge the minimal costs to support the volunteer if you must... But in a country like Honduras, no way is that the 600$ a week they are talking about... And are all the other professionals in this association getting full pay? You mean the instructors aren't volunteering? The cooks aren't volunteering? The boat captain isn't volunteering? They are all full time employees getting full salary? This sounds more like an ecotourism outfit than a non-profit organisation... Where I come from, non-profit organisations don't pay a lot of salary! Maybe to the main coordinator who does it full time... They rely on "volunteers" for the labor who give their time to help a good cause... This keeps the operational costs down...

All this to say that if they are really looking for volunteers to help out rather than clients, they should be minimising the cost to the volunteers. They'll get more labour that way... This honenstly feels like they are looking more for the money than the actual volunteers...

R-Man, you are correct. In fact, according to the site, there is no guarantee you will do much diving at all! You might be assigned to terrestrial ecology, which would be a bummer for any avid diver! Add to this that "real scientific" diving is often quite boring. You're often kneeling in the bottom counting organisms inside quadrants and such. You,re not diving with dolphins and taking pictures and admiring the beauty of the reefs... Scientific diving is hard work and not like leisure diving...

Once again (sorry for being redundant), I have nothing against all this!!! But at least tell it like it is! Too often I feel such organisations are just looking for money to finance themselves by using "endearing terms" such as "volunteer" and "help save the reefs"... I just feel things need to be honnest and clear so people understand what they are enrolling in. No bad surprises when their job for two weeks is counting mouse droppings in the plains.... Which can be a very important job for scientific research!

Sorry for the ranting!!!

Codman, to summarise one of your points, you disagree with the word “volunteer” when they are paying more then covering the costs. I have to say I do agree with you, but the costs do add up, especially when involving diving. Someone has to pay for tanks, boats, equipment, etc. And how does the person who is training, supervising, taking the liability, working full time with volunteers, get paid? Is this “a cost” to be covered? Yes, the cost is equal to the cost of a vacation, but that is becoming a huge industry- Ecotourism.

And I do agree that some of the larger conservation companies use the word “volunteer” a little too liberally to sell their product, if they are not honestly doing some good. The definition of Volunteer is “person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily” not somebody who works for free but gets costs covered.



Yes, the word “volunteer” does play on people “desire to help a good cause” because that is indeed what they are doing. At the end of the day the data a “volunteer” is collecting is helping the community. The term “science vacation” is too light and does not display the importance of the work. The word “client” gives connotations of that person calling the shots whereas to make a project effective it has to be well structured with a degree of “clients” conforming to it, not the other way around.

Perhaps with the education they are gaining from a conservation project, be it anything from a greater understanding of the marine environment to diving skills, it is worth the money and time they are spending. Don’t forget there is also the demand from people considering a career in biological science to get hands on experience outside of the lab! And for them the skills learnt, the interaction with communities and the reef are invaluable life changing experiences- priceless!

 

[Utila_ecology]

OK let me cover some of the comments raised by Roatan Man and sand - and thanks sand for your constructive post. Our volunteers do a rotation of projects to give them a comprehensive view of the interaction of tropical coastal ecology, so yes, they may be doing some terrestrial ecology in mangrove forest, but at least they then get an understanding of the importance of mangrove and its inter-relationship with the health of both fish stocks and the coral reef. They go out twice a day so can easily clock up 10 dives a week plus there is a recreational diving opportunity on Sundays included in the programme charge. Running boats, providing all the diving equipment, paying Honduran staff - the boat captain and a housekeeper-cum-cook (thereby contributing directly to the local economy) providing all the food, and yes, paying some of the scientists a small wage to provide the necessary expertise at the Centre, all cost money but as a Honduran NGO we do not have the overheads of a large European or American organisation to cover and operate on low margins. As RT has pointed out, there are many other operations charging considerably more. However, on the original thread, 'itsjustme' has suggested a new thread be started on what is being done to change things so rather than continue on this thread - I doubt we will agree on the use of the term 'volunteer', -we will be starting a new thread giving information on what is being achieved by our research team, assisted by those willing to come and help.

 

[Warmwater Wank]

Humans have a unique ability to address other people's situations at a distance. However, other than questioning the use of the word "volunteer", Codman's posts are also doing a service by allowing Utila ecology a chance to explain UCME's program. Webster's defines volunteer as "one who offers into any service of his own free will" (bit of a sexist that old Webster), it doesn't say anything about a "free lunch" being offered...

If we drop the word choice argument for a bit, what about the reality here? Is what UCME doing a benefit or bust for the environment and their local situation? Is it sustainable? Doesn't sound like they are trying to bring in cruise ships or rent jet skis or those silly, reef trashing BOB things (which I still sort of believe are weird April Fools Photoshop hoaxes). I haven't heard that volunteers will be used for grading golf courses or building high-rise Hiltons.

The open discussion of an outfit that offers a bit more than "eat, sleep,dive" (not that I'm against that mind you!) seems positive. People spend their money (even to "volunteer") as they choose and I doubt many are hoodwinked into UCME's programs. Perhaps instead of "dive,dive,dive" some folks may want to "give" a bit as well or just add some variety to their dive trip. Utila ecology's responses seem reasoned. Perhaps some comments from past UCME volunteers/clients/customers/divers (eh, have I hit the right term yet? ) would help? // ww

 

[CODMAN]

Oh man, what a crummy day. I can't believe all that's happening to me at the same time!!!!!!

I just found out that the local shelter's food bank, where I volunteer to help out distributing food, is now charging me 10$ per night I help out giving food to the homeless! And the Big brothers association is charging me 400$ this year to get a little brother to help out with (although they did offer me the premium formula for an extra 100$ a year where I get first pick of the kid I help). And the high school soccer team I am coaching has decided no more freebees! They are charging me 10.99$ per team member, per game, with an additional 0.99$ per goal scored!!!!! But they are all reinvesting the money in their non-profit organisations...

Can you believe it? All this volunteer work is ruining me! I'm going to have to look seriously at my finances and see wich I can keep, and which I need to cut... I'm sure the local donors blood bank is going to be hiking their prices too. I wouldn't be surprised if this year it cost me 19.99$ per liter of blood I donate... Man life sucks...:14:

All this said Ecology, I certainly don't want you to get the impression this is personal about you and your organism. It's just about the principles behind it I have a bit of trouble. I know that as a scientist, I would feel shamefull if I was asking our volunteers to also finance our work. We are lucky to have them and I try to make their time with us as cheap, easy, interesting and fun as possible. If you guys are doing good helpfull research for Utila and the reefs there, well that is good news. Even if I don't agree with the way you finance yourselves. And by the way, yes, I fully understand how obtaining financing must be difficult for you... If you don't have a problem with marketting this "product" in this manner, well good for you...

I'm going to stop adding to this thread since I've said what I had to say (actually, I probably said more than I had to). Each person/ organisation can make their own oppinion of the subject and act according to it.:14:

 

[Bay Island Diver]

Couldn't agree with you more Warmwater, Utila and Sand,

Why should cooks work for free in Utila?
Why should boat captains work for free?
Why should the scientists work for free?
Why should the mechanics in the compressor room and boat sheds work for free?
Why should dive instructors/divemasters work free?, its a great job, there's no denying it, but its still a job?

When you take your little brother out to a baseball game does the big brother association pay for that? If they do, i wouldn't accept it, i would fit the bill and donate my free tickets to other deserving kids.

As a volunteer it was a great experience, to pay for the privilege, and then see with my own eyes the good it was doing.

Will

 

[CODMAN]

Why should cooks work for free in Utila?
Why should boat captains work for free?
Why should the scientists work for free?
Why should the mechanics in the compressor room and boat sheds work for free?
Why should dive instructors/divemasters work free?, its a great job, there's no denying it, but its still a job?

Will

Hmmm... Lets see... maybe because they are working for a "NON-PROFIT" organisation that is trying to save the reefs of Utila, help develop sustainable development and ultimately save their jobs and lively hoods on the island? That doesn't mean they should be doing it full time for free... but they could donate some of their time to doing it... That's what I usually call volunteering... They are the ones who have the most to gain by making it work!

 

[itsjustme0770]

Codman-

Non-Profit and non-revenue generating are two different things. For example: A hospital foundation that is a "non-profit" entity employs lots of people. Fundraisers, executives, secretarys (and pays them all). The point of a non-profit is that it is not structured (nor allowed under US Tax Rules), to generate profits for the owner, rather all non-operating expenses are redirected to the foundation's mission. Same point with Utila Ecology. As much as we would all like there to be sufficient wealth to allow work without any compensation, everyone has to eat, boat parts must be purchased, etc. I certainly don't know, but I suspect that those working at Utila Ecology are not getting rich from their work. Although I don't know about the ability to qualify as a non-profit in Honduras, an "entreprenural non-profit director" might figure out how to qualify as a 401(c)3 in the states and permit the cost of the trip to be deducted from US taxes.