The PADI ascent order

[detroit diver]

You've obviously not trained with stages on your left.

With the proper equipment and training, you're more like a dragster than Nascar! You go straight, and you go fast!

dc4bs once bubbled...


Well... Swiming in circles for one thing.
Put 2 or more on my left side and I'm a "nascar" diver (I tried this and didn't like it one bit)...

Hmm...

I do have to admit that I tried that with a borrowed backplate that was setup for someone smaller than me so the stage tanks hung at an angle across my chest. My buddy got a good laugh out of watching me that dive.

I suppose I should try it again in my own gear before saying anything more about it. Then I'll see how it is with the stage tanks riding much more comfortably and parallel to my torso instead of at an angle.

 

[dc4bs]

Yep,

Like I said, I only tried it with ill-fitting, borrowed equipment.

I'll try putting both stages to the left next time I do a dive with 2 and see how it goes.

Edit
---

I will say, that I am very comfortable diving with a bottle on each side in my current setup and have no trouble reaching any of my gear.

Also, that's how my deco/trimix/adv-trimix instructor teaches it (hotter mix on left side) so I just got used to doing it that way and the guys I dive with do it that way (with a few exceptions).

 

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver once bubbled...
a. No one ever dives with only one timing device when they are DIR.

Good one. Lets see if any one gets it.

2. Stages are to one side for all types of diving. Wreck, cave, scootering. You never have to change your equipment locations regardless of what type of diving you are doing. What's wrong with that?

It has nothing to do with DIR or scootering but for the most part I put all stages and decompression bottles on the left. In OW there's usually only 2 and their for deco not stages and I have them the whole dive. They're no problem on the left, I'm used to it and it keeps the long hose free. If I have to carry more than two there is usually at least one that I'm finished with and I clip the neck to my left hip d-ring. If I have to carry more than one empty and I have 2 up top I use a tank carrier on the left hip. If I'm hauling more than two and they're full and it's not practical to have them on a carrier (like when you don't have room) I'll put some on the right. The only times I've had to do that were doing set up dives and I wasn't taking those tanks that far. In that cave full tanks cliped to the hip on a carrier only would have been dragging the bottom.

 

[cliffdiver]

I suppose that if we were to summarize responses to sjhm's original, thread-starting question, it'd be something like "well, no one knows how to safely BB, and most recreational divers who find themselves OOA are relatively new and at 20 - 40 fsw when it happens, and the CESA is actually ridiculously easy, so that's the way to go."

Or, something like that.

I was PADI OW certified, and we were taught and made to practise both. It was all a quick run-through, of course, but in light of this discussion, I guess I'm glad that I got what seems to be more than the usual in terms of curriculum. Well, at least in that area.

So, I'm back at what seems to be a recurring theme: we're all initially undertaught, and most newly certified divers simply are not aware of the degree to which they are underprepared to handle sudden, adverse situations. Even if instructors, the MikeFs and Walters of our underwater world notwithstanding, do not expand their OW curricula anytime soon, each new cert needs to at least hear that, though certified now, their training is not over, and they are strongly encouraged to keep learning, and on and on...

The take-home message I'm gettin': take an active interest in your gear configuration and it's working function, and discuss/research your SA options in case of OOA or other emergency with your buddy before each dive. Whatever PADI or whoever else recommends doesn't matter as much as what you know you can safely accomplish under the current conditions.

I know you all know this. I'm just thinking out loud

 

[GDI]

:doctor:
SJHM consider this..... The only true emergency in diving is a OOA situation, not watching your spg, a broken hose, a failed O ring. I can isolate the reg with the broken hose and the tank with the failed o ring, (depending on your equipment config). So that just leaves the "not watching your SPG" thing! Everything else is just a inconveince. The CESA from a stand point of ascents is in a logical 3rd position.
First: Buddy Breathing is a optional skill. I still teach it because I know there are divers out there who still do not have alternates, hanging down or otherwise, the alternate is not there. So do not assume that all divers are at the same standard of equipment. It is best to give your students the most tools to work with when confronted with an emergency. This like other skills needs to be practiced and divers need to be taught to remain calm.
Second: PADI's skill for CESA is standardized from a depth of 40 ft or less (not in training, 30ft or less in training). The thought here is that you attempt to gain your buddies attention and then start your ascent hoping that he will make it to you and provide you the alternate air source. This may or may not occur. As we have no debate on the Normal Ascent as first priority or the priority of Alternate Ascent being second, also consider that the CESA is in fact a self rescue, therefore not placing any further risk onto your buddy. Remember that if you run out of air, your buddy is also low on air. Self rescue to a pnic diver is also grapping the one from another diver's mouth. In some of my tech training we have practiced the CESA from as deep as 100ft/30 m If you remain calm and allow physics to work for you, then you can easily make it to the surface. You must decide to live or die - pick one. I choose to live and I would rather break the surface gasping for air, and then manually/orally inflate my BCD. You must have your skills proficient to the point of self reliance, not buddy reliance. Any way that gets you safely back to the surface is good, but some have a higher risk. (Question What time is it?)

Buddy Breathing does work but due to the difficulty of coordination of the method with a unknown diver (that is a possibility) The risk of stress/panic is very high. Plus in the first three ascents you do not really place any other diver at risk. The donor diver in a buddy breathing situation must give up their air supply to provide a OOA diver - air. That simple issue puts them at greater risk, loss of control of their air supply, lung expansion injury, DCI, etc. All this because one diver did not frequently check their spg. Let me ask you this? Do you drive down the road in your car and not look at the fuel gauge?
The last in the priority of the Ascents, the Emergency Bouyant Ascent is correct where it needs to be as well due to it's high risk factors of DCI, and lung expansion injury. However keep in mind that your weights are not worth your life. It is better to visit a chamber than to be talking with St Pete at the Pearly Gates!!!
When I asked you what time it was did you automatically look at your watch? Is your watch on your left wrist or right? Do you have it there everyday and need not think of where it is to look at the time? That is the way you should be with your equipment config and how automatic and easy it is to look at your SPG.

Normal Ascent - all is good
Alternate Air Ascent - Bad Diver, look at your SPG
CESA - Buddy to far away and not looking at me - OH Sh#@
Buddy Breathing - Thanks for including me into YOUR Problem!
Emergency Bouyant Ascent - I've got to make it - hang on - OH SH##############@

 

[MikeFerrara]

cliffdiver once bubbled...

So, I'm back at what seems to be a recurring theme: we're all initially undertaught, and most newly certified divers simply are not aware of the degree to which they are underprepared to handle sudden, adverse situations. Even if instructors, the MikeFs and Walters of our underwater world notwithstanding, do not expand their OW curricula anytime soon, each new cert needs to at least hear that, though certified now, their training is not over, and they are strongly encouraged to keep learning, and on and on...

I think most instructors do stress to students that their OW cert is a license to learn and doesn't mean that they know it all. That's often followed by an invitation to come back for an advanced class soon. Unfortunately this stuff isn't taught or required there either.


The point is that whatever you don't get as far as technique in OW you likely won't get at all even if you do all the way to instructor. None of it's rocket science but you can dive for many years and not figure it all out on your own. Chances are this won't change your life and it probably won't get you killed. It could though and it does get some killed. When you do find some one who can give you some of it finally, you'll likely feel cheated and wonder why they couldn't have just told you all that simple stuff in the beginning. Running around buying classes won't help unless you luck out and the right instructor.

I eventually lucked out and found a couple good divers and instructors but it was after we were doing 170 ft dives on air with equipment that must have been given to us as a joke under the supervission of an instructor who stayed on the dock because he didn't feel good. The thought that I paid money to some of those non-diving idiots who did their best to get me killed doesn't sit well.

 

[RiverRat]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

The thought that I paid money to some of those non-diving idiots who did their best to get me killed doesn't sit well.

Man that sucks! To be quite honest I had some good instructors in OW and AOW but I learned a TON of stuff here on the board from tech divers, cave divers, commercial divers, you name it that I would not have "learned" anywhere else. Now I take this info and practice and preach it for my own (and other's) benefit. LDS wanted me in a jacket, I bought a BP/W and after several dives I got to neutral buoyancy. FredT's buoyancy calcs got me close so that I was able to fine tune onsite with some great divers I met. Seems to me that "rec-tech" is paving the way. I was pumped when I saw a few guys on the boat with a BP/W. I'm even starting to think about breathing a long hose (maybe not a seven footer) and having my octo on a necklace for all of the obvious benefits. I took the "peak performance buoyancy" class in AOW, but it was a waste really. I mean I was diving 28# on the belt and countering that with air in a crappy rental BC. I looked like the Concorde during takeoff. How the hell can you even attemp "peak performance" like that? Don't get me wrong, the deep dive in pitch black quarry water, the Nav dive, the wreck and the night dive were all good and helped me become a more confident diver. It's just too bad that some of the training out there doesn't incorporate some of the stuff tech divers are into...

 

[FredT]

First I'd like to let the youngsters know that when I learned to dive regulators has at most 3 ports. Most "single hose" regulators had ports labeled "regulator" and "tool", some even had a HP port. The "double hose" regs had intake coming over your right shoulder and exhaust going over your left, most of those didn't even have a HP port. BCs were an invention several years away, and the SPG was first becoming available. The SPG was priced WAY to high for most divers to afford one.
OOA was not an "event", it was how you knew the dive was over. Buddy breathing or a "blow and go" (ESA) on an ascent was "normal", especialy if you didn't have a J valve. Even if you had a "reserve" the odds were even it got bumped somewhere along the dive and activated early, so you couldn't count on it. ESAs from 30meters were not unusual, because we trained for it. I think my deepest not fun blow and go was from about 40 meters. This gives you a point of reference for what follows.

My ideal reg today still has one second stage, one inflator hose and a SPG hose on it. If diving with someone who knows how to buddy breathe that is what I want to dive given a no overhead no deco dive plan. OTOH if I can't trust my buddy to give my reg back after 2 breaths, why would I want to dive with him?

Lets just say I deeply regret that most of the 'standard" instruction sets have now moved what was, and still should be, a few simple standard drills into a panic situation. It may be a sign of both "improved" gear and 'improved" marketing, but I don't have to like it.

FT

 

[FredT]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
That's exactly my point. I've seen novice divers panic almost 100% of the time that anything at all went wrong. Learning to really manage a problem is the best way to gain the confidence that may prevent panic. The time to do that is before a diver is turned loose on their own, IMO.And I have taught my fair share of classes where buddy breathing wasn't taught. No more though.

Mike, I believe some instructors don't teach in water problem solving because THEY can't problem solve. I've seen an instructor wig out when an anchor line parted, when he wasn't even in the water with his students and his students were all on deck! He could not adapt to a changing environment or dive plan! The scary part is that they don't even have a clue as to the scope of what they DON'T know.

rant=off

FT

 

[IndigoBlue]

SSI and NAUI will both give you more freedom to teach.

Consider them, as you advance in experience as a D/M for PADI.

Then you can "lose" the "PADI ascent order of preference" and teach something that makes more sense to you, personally.

I teach:

1) check your SPG about every 5 mins and your buddy's too
2) stay within arms reach of your buddy at all times
3) agree on an air sharing procedure, such as donating your octo or donating your primary, and practice it once together before you go into the water
4) if you run out of air then signal OOA to your buddy and share air, ascend together, do your safety stop, then orally inflate your B/C at the surface
5) if you run OOA and your buddy is nowhere in sight, perform an emergency swimming ascent [ESA]
6) if you cannot ESA then EBA
7) if you cannot EBA because something is caught, then ditch your B/C and tank and your weight belt with it, and do a freediving EBA. remember to always exhale continuously during an emergency ascent, since you have just breathed compressed air at depth on scuba. your buddy can get your gear later for you.
8) it never hurts to carry a small pony bottle with you as well, sufficient for an ascent from your MOD with a 3 min safety stop at 15 to 20 ft.

That puts the ESA as #5 on my list, right after air sharing at #4.

Freedom to teach. You cannot beat it!