The New Atomic TFX

[scubadada]

Hi @stuartv

You may be entirely correct with regards to most divers perceived work of breathing.

The only times I have ever really been aware of the work of breathing is when I have really pushed my regulators, generally at depth, by extended serious exertion. On these occasions it was very clear to me that the work of exhalation was much more than the work of inhalation. I don't remember this diving back in the day with my MK5/109 but it is certainly true with a MK25 and a G250HP or S600. These are also the only occasions when I thought I may be starting to accumulate CO2. Stopping, breathing deeply and resting a bit has always taken care of these episodes and allowed me to proceed. I'll go with the ANSTI loop.

 

[rsingler]

Will you announce the next RG event here? I missed the last one...

Yes. In the Regulator Forum.

 

[rsingler]

The only times I have ever really been aware of the work of breathing is when I have really pushed my regulators, generally at depth, by extended serious exertion. On these occasions it was very clear to me that the work of exhalation was much more than the work of inhalation.

I think this makes sense. Here is one modern second stage, and the ANSTI loop clearly shows a crossover into positive pressure (freeflow) mid-breath at 168 ft and heavy exertion.

During inhalation, the reg is helping you.
During exhalation, even though our muscles are better arranged for exhalation than inhalation, it's clearly more joules of work.

 

[scubadada]

Thanks @rsingler a very good example. The loop goes from right to left to right. After cracking with a negative pressure, much of the inhalation has a positive pressure, the assist. The entire exhalation requires generating a positive pressure, the contribution to the WOB.

 

[Nemrod]

Hi @stuartv

You may be entirely correct with regards to most divers perceived work of breathing.

The only times I have ever really been aware of the work of breathing is when I have really pushed my regulators, generally at depth, by extended serious exertion. On these occasions it was very clear to me that the work of exhalation was much more than the work of inhalation. I don't remember this diving back in the day with my MK5/109 but it is certainly true with a MK25 and a G250HP or S600. These are also the only occasions when I thought I may be starting to accumulate CO2. Stopping, breathing deeply and resting a bit has always taken care of these episodes and allowed me to proceed. I'll go with the ANSTI loop.

I become acutely aware when working hard that the lack of exhalation resistance is very important to me. I notice it very much and very quickly. I cannot take another breath until the prior one is exhausted and I want another breath now, not in a little while.

 

[rx7diver]

... ScubaPro can make a piston 1st stage that is rated for 100% O2. ...

Hmmm. Not sure I completely understand. In the mid-1990's, I owned only three Mk 10 first stages. I purchased two OEM kits to upgrade a pair of them to pseudo Mk 10 Plus regs, and I purchased an OEM kit to convert the third one to be full oxygen service.

Are there not similar OEM kits for converting the current Scubapro piston 1st stages to be full oxygen service?

rx7diver

 

[Shabaday]

Yes, people use M1s for tech diving. Including myself. But, I only have 2 of them and I use them for my backgas, not deco gas. I would have no problem using them for 100% O2 deco gas, if I had more of them, but I don't.

The issue of pressure merits noting that that only applies to the 1st stage. ScubaPro can make a piston 1st stage that is rated for 100% O2. I just don't see why Atomic can't/doesn't.

Your point about not using Atomic for stage/deco regs is a good one. And a reason why I have not really considered purchasing more M1s...

I guess if Atomic REALLY wanted the serious tech diver market (i.e. tech divers who use deco gases for accelerated deco, versus "less-serious" tech divers who only do deco on back gas) they would have to do a new 1st stage that they could/would rate for 100%, and also a new 2nd stage that did not have the Seat Saver feature.



I think it came from a post upthread (don't remember who and too lazy to look it up). Somebody said that that's what they do/use.



I'll stipulate to the accuracy of that, when WOB is measured on an ANSTI machine.

I am not at ALL convinced that it really matters a whole lot to us divers.

Example: The ScubaPro S620Ti came out shortly before I went through ScubaPro Reg Tech class. It was one of the regs we worked on. The SP rep was proud to point out that the S620Ti had the lowest WOB of any of their regs, and it was due to the improved exhaust design, as compared to their S600. They claimed a 30% improvement in WOB.

So, I bought 4 SP reg sets shortly after that class. 4 x Mk25 EVO, with 2 x G260 and 2 x S620Ti. I put them all together and did some dive testing using a G260 and a S620Ti on the same Mk25, with the same length hoses.

My experience was that I felt like the G260 breathed just a little nicer. It seemed like the inhale had just a tiny bit more "jamming air into your mouth" feeling than the S620Ti - or any of my other regs that I had at the time.

My gut feeling is that we humans are not so accustomed or adapted to really having to suck our air in. On the other hand, we do lots of things where we develop our ability to blow out against pressure. Inflating balloons, playing wind instruments, and many other examples come to mind.

So, my gut suggests to me that I am MUCH more sensitive (and averse) to things that make it harder to inhale, and I am fairly INsensitive to things that create some resistance to exhaling.

At least, that's my theory for why the S620Ti measures as having a lower WOB on a machine, but the G260 FELT better to breathe with at depth (my test went to around 90 feet, IIRC).

I feel exactly the same way about the 620ti and the G260. The G260 seems to be an easier breather. I had both tuned by the same person at the same time on the same first stage

 

[stuartv]

Hmmm. Not sure I completely understand. In the mid-1990's, I owned only three Mk 10 first stages. I purchased two OEM kits to upgrade a pair of them to pseudo Mk 10 Plus regs, and I purchased an OEM kit to convert the third one to be full oxygen service.

Are there not similar OEM kits for converting the current Scubapro piston 1st stages to be full oxygen service?

rx7diver

Yes. As far as I know, you can have a Mk 25 that is rated for oxygen service. That is what I was saying.

if ScubaPro has it, why doesn’t Atomic? And maybe it’s insurance. Or maybe it’s because it’s not truly useful without also having a 2nd stage with no seat saver, and they don’t want to add that to their line for such small sales numbers as they’d have.

Or maybe all that plus more.

 

[stuartv]

Hi @stuartv

You may be entirely correct with regards to most divers perceived work of breathing.

The only times I have ever really been aware of the work of breathing is when I have really pushed my regulators, generally at depth, by extended serious exertion. On these occasions it was very clear to me that the work of exhalation was much more than the work of inhalation. I don't remember this diving back in the day with my MK5/109 but it is certainly true with a MK25 and a G250HP or S600. These are also the only occasions when I thought I may be starting to accumulate CO2. Stopping, breathing deeply and resting a bit has always taken care of these episodes and allowed me to proceed. I'll go with the ANSTI loop.

You raise a fair point. When I’ve really compared regs it has been when explicitly not working. Hovering and just breathing.

Further, I can’t remember a time I’ve ever really gotten into a serious case of huffing and puffing hard on OC. I have on CCR and it was, umm, concerning!

So, maybe I don’t really have a suitable basis for my thoughts on how important exhaust is to a diver’s perception of WOB.

 

[zitadel1941]

Hello to all our esteemed forum members!
This is my first post, caused by the appearance of a new AA regulator.
I want to say right away that I bought my first AA regulator (st1) back in 1998 and was very satisfied with it. The second stage serves faithfully and today, the first, unfortunately, passed away with the help of very responsive Egyptian staff. I recently purchased a T3 kit and am very happy with it!
With this preface, I wanted to say that I know AA firsthand and am very fond of their products and regulators in particular. But that does not mean that I am an insane fan, ready to buy anything, just for the presence of my favorite logo on the product.
So it was strange enough for me to read a lot of posts that mostly, without any meaningful information about the new regulator, were only about the price (is it expensive or not?) and the presence of a desire to buy it... Fortunately, recent posts have become much more interesting and I decided to share my thoughts as well. If I recall and elaborate on the car analogy given here earlier, I wanted to say that different characteristics are important for everyone! One needs cheapness (an Indian car), the other needs a bus, the third needs a tank, the fourth needs a supercar that will go out of the garage only on weekends - to make a lap around the main city square, well, for someone the ideal option is a quality car that will drive every day for 20 years without a breakdown and will not cost like a lunar space ship!
There are almost no universal solutions or they are, as a rule, worse by crucial indices of specially created products. Remember the notorious universal Swiss officer's knife. It's claimed to be able to cut wood, to make fire and whatever else it can do. In fact, it is a nice souvenir, almost useless for anything and you should not look for such unfortunate compromises for really important things.
In the light of this approach, questions about the price and the necessity of the purchase fall away, because it is a personal matter for each potential user.
It remains only to understand the consumer qualities of the product and to understand why and how much it is needed for "me" (you) personally. I sometimes do technical diving. In particular I dived to 140 meters, did ice diving when the air is -20 and water +2. Visited cold and muddy caves. I have my own regulators for all occasions. For depths is apex atx200, under the ice - poseidon cyklon 5000 metal, sometimes mares abyss22. For pure oxygen I use poseidon. When I first started diving in 1996 I owned a sp mk20 along with a d400, which I was happy with, but later sold it when it was not needed, realizing I really needed it. When I'm not planning technical dives, I only use AA - as the lightest regulator both for breathing and weight!
Again, as correctly stated here, AA regulators are not considered by the "technical community" to be designed and conditionally suitable for the most difficult technical dives. Nevertheless, I have used the AA regulator with the classic second stage on not the deepest wrecks and caves. The new tfx second stage I think is more comfortable to breathe, but still much less adapted in its shape factor for technical diving. How comfortable it is for photographers I don't know...
For myself, for simple diving, I'll probably buy the new second stage when it's on sale separately. Whether you personally need it, let everyone answer for themselves. I assume that someone will buy a tfx even just for the collection - also an option if you have the money, and I see no point in discussing it. As for the price, my personal opinion is that at least all top AA developments, including tfx, are highly overpriced in terms of their real cost. Why this is so, I don't know exactly, although I have some speculation, but I also see no reason to discuss it here.
Bottom line: I will be very interested in all the real reviews from owners and experts regarding tfx. Of course, I want and will try to purchase a second stage separately. Personally for myself, I think this acquisition is more of a desire than a vital necessity, but if possible, I will definitely try to make this wish come true.
Good luck to all and have a good dive!