The New Atomic TFX

[p_kos]

Interesting. I wonder if the M1 they sell in Germany has ANY different parts at all. My understanding has been that the only difference for 100% would be O-ring material.

I have never wished for an adjustable venturi in my Atomic regs. The AFC gives that and seems to work fine. I like not needing to remember to flip a switch back and forth between Dive and Pre-dive.

I don't think there is a problem with Ti in 2nd stages. They are only exposed to ambient pressure. The problem is Ti in the 1st stage, where it is exposed to, potentially, 3500 psi.

As for Huish, they already had Hollis, right? Not sure why they would need Zeagle to cover the tech segment.

I guess AA does what they do for similar reasons to why Ferrari doesn't make farm work trucks. The people that use those kind of vehicles don't want to spend 2 or 3 times as much for something that is only 2% better. Whereas, in the recreational dive (or sports car) market, there is an adequately sized market of people who are happy to do that with their dive gear.

It does make you wonder, though, why they bother to make the M1 reg at all. Maybe it is really to sell to the tech-wannabe recreational divers? (I'm allowed to say that, since I have a pair of them myself )

Talk to Chris Richardson of Deep6 about this. His regs, as the M1, were definitely developed with tech diving in mind. He also recommends max 80% O2 with his regs @ 3400 psi but 100% @ 2400 psi. It has to do with the specific partial pressure of O2 where things become unstable. AA just didn’t want to confuse people so they said 80% and left the relative pressure out of it. They’re in the extra cautious camp liability wise, but of course the M1 has been used with pure O2 since it came out and no issues have been reported. Regardless, Atomic seconds are a poor choice as a stage reg since they flood if you accidentally depressurize them during the dive.

 

[James79]

@James79 will make a 3D printed lid with an o-ring sealed knob to do on-the-fly cracking effort changes, I'm sure.

But @stuartv , I can't recall the last time my D400 started to freeflow from seat indentation, except for one I had tuned to 0.5" and ignored in storage for a year. That one hissed on first pressurization until I added 5 minutes on the clock. Thirty seconds to fix, though I couldn't have done it underwater, lol!

@rsingler , you keep signing me up for projects on this thing, but it terrifies me! It weirded me out to borrow a D420 from @lexvil for those projects (due to price)... That TFX costs more than what I have into my boys and my primary dive gear in total!

Respectfully,

James

 

[Geo7]

Interesting. I wonder if the M1 they sell in Germany has ANY different parts at all. My understanding has been that the only difference for 100% would be O-ring material.

I have never wished for an adjustable venturi in my Atomic regs. The AFC gives that and seems to work fine. I like not needing to remember to flip a switch back and forth between Dive and Pre-dive.

I don't think there is a problem with Ti in 2nd stages. They are only exposed to ambient pressure. The problem is Ti in the 1st stage, where it is exposed to, potentially, 3500 psi.

As for Huish, they already had Hollis, right? Not sure why they would need Zeagle to cover the tech segment.

I guess AA does what they do for similar reasons to why Ferrari doesn't make farm work trucks. The people that use those kind of vehicles don't want to spend 2 or 3 times as much for something that is only 2% better. Whereas, in the recreational dive (or sports car) market, there is an adequately sized market of people who are happy to do that with their dive gear.

It does make you wonder, though, why they bother to make the M1 reg at all. Maybe it is really to sell to the tech-wannabe recreational divers? (I'm allowed to say that, since I have a pair of them myself )

Excellent points...

From what I saw the parts were the same. The o-rings are all EPDM and a few in Viton in the universal parts kit. My only surprise was when I came across an M1 with an M26 Nitrox thread (which I still have).

And yes, I finally had to concede that I don't really need the venturi adjustment on the Atomic (I meant purely for octo duty btw). I was skeptic at first, about the AFC and other things in the Atomic. The more I used them and every time I serviced them I learned how smart the design really is. If I can have either cracking OR venturi adjustment, I am ok, as it allows me to hot tune the reg.

I actually do think the M1 is a great techdiving reg though: I even noticed on the WKPP Facebook page that a few of their old-school cave explorers switched to M1 for primary and/or backgas. Also some KUR divers switched to M1 first stages on their bailout tanks.

 

[lexvil]

@rsingler , you keep signing me up for projects on this thing, but it terrifies me! It weirded me out to borrow a D420 from @lexvil for those projects (due to price)... That TFX costs more than what I have into my boys and my primary dive gear in total!

Respectfully,

James

You can do it, let’s hope Rob sends his, I don’t expect to have one for a bit.

 

[Nemrod]

@Angelo Farina is probably still driving stick shift car too

Hey, watch it, I resemble that remark.

I do not know where it comes from that regulators that we have to "suck" on or which are tuned stiff will conserve air or reduce consumption. This is completely wrong. The WOB goes up and that plus the anxiety for a next breath and the work required to get it will use more air, not less, and most assuredly with a stressed diver. A hot tuned regulator that bubbles now and then is not going to impact air consumption, nobody is hot tuning them so that they free flow continuously during a dive and cannot be stopped from doing so.

I tune my (adjustable) regulators on the hot side also. But I tune them per the manuals initially and then after they settle in after a few dives I revisit them and take the cracking effort down essentially to zero. That means with the knob fully out there may be a very slight, almost inaudible flow that is stopped by turning the knob in about a half of a turn or so.

Cracking effort is over rated however. It is only one of three parameters, an arguably not even the most important of the three, that affects WOB. They are:

1. Cracking effort to initiate flow.
2. Venturi flow to sustain airflow effectiveness and mirror the diver's demand.
3. Exhaust effort.

Cracking effort is easy to measure on the bench so we fixate on it. A regulator like the USD 1085 or the Voit/AMF/Mares MR12 had a reasonably low WOB despite a possibly higher cracking effort (compared to a BA reg) because they had an effective Venturi well matched to a diver's inspiration needs and at least later versions also had large exhaust valves. WOB = all of the above, not just one or the other.

Lubrication greases, in the second stage I have yet to have one catch on fire and explode. I use 100% food grade silicone. Of course, not for O2 use, but for Nitrox blends, yes. I am not telling others to do so and when my regulator explodes and blows my head off you can get to tell me you told me so . But thus far my head remains intact.

 

[scubadada]

Cracking effort is over rated however. It is only one of three parameters that affects WOB. Thye are:
1. Cracking effort to initiate flow.
2. Venturi flow to sustain airflow effectiveness and match the diver's demand.
3. Exhaust effort...

Generally the greatest single contributor to the WOB in the loop

 

[Nemrod]

And speaking of Venturi flow, certain regulators in the past, the Pilot, the Tekna T2100, the Omega II, the Jetstream (yes it too) would not mimic the diver's demand and over boost, the Venturi flow or main flow momentarily causing a feedback loop and that expressed itself as a lag and lead or bootstrapping or even better put, a stutter. The dang Tekna would shoot out of the mouth and go flying about like some sort of Jetsons cartoon rocket ship, and I am not much exaggerating .

 

[Geo7]

More to follow one Regulator Geeks night.

Will you announce the next RG event here? I missed the last one...

 

[stuartv]

Talk to Chris Richardson of Deep6 about this. His regs, as the M1, were definitely developed with tech diving in mind. He also recommends max 80% O2 with his regs @ 3400 psi but 100% @ 2400 psi. It has to do with the specific partial pressure of O2 where things become unstable. AA just didn’t want to confuse people so they said 80% and left the relative pressure out of it. They’re in the extra cautious camp liability wise, but of course the M1 has been used with pure O2 since it came out and no issues have been reported. Regardless, Atomic seconds are a poor choice as a stage reg since they flood if you accidentally depressurize them during the dive.

Yes, people use M1s for tech diving. Including myself. But, I only have 2 of them and I use them for my backgas, not deco gas. I would have no problem using them for 100% O2 deco gas, if I had more of them, but I don't.

The issue of pressure merits noting that that only applies to the 1st stage. ScubaPro can make a piston 1st stage that is rated for 100% O2. I just don't see why Atomic can't/doesn't.

Your point about not using Atomic for stage/deco regs is a good one. And a reason why I have not really considered purchasing more M1s...

I guess if Atomic REALLY wanted the serious tech diver market (i.e. tech divers who use deco gases for accelerated deco, versus "less-serious" tech divers who only do deco on back gas) they would have to do a new 1st stage that they could/would rate for 100%, and also a new 2nd stage that did not have the Seat Saver feature.

Hey, watch it, I resemble that remark.

I do not know where it comes from that regulators that we have to "suck" on or which are tuned stiff will conserve air or reduce consumption.

I think it came from a post upthread (don't remember who and too lazy to look it up). Somebody said that that's what they do/use.

Generally the greatest single contributor to the WOB in the loop

I'll stipulate to the accuracy of that, when WOB is measured on an ANSTI machine.

I am not at ALL convinced that it really matters a whole lot to us divers.

Example: The ScubaPro S620Ti came out shortly before I went through ScubaPro Reg Tech class. It was one of the regs we worked on. The SP rep was proud to point out that the S620Ti had the lowest WOB of any of their regs, and it was due to the improved exhaust design, as compared to their S600. They claimed a 30% improvement in WOB.

So, I bought 4 SP reg sets shortly after that class. 4 x Mk25 EVO, with 2 x G260 and 2 x S620Ti. I put them all together and did some dive testing using a G260 and a S620Ti on the same Mk25, with the same length hoses.

My experience was that I felt like the G260 breathed just a little nicer. It seemed like the inhale had just a tiny bit more "jamming air into your mouth" feeling than the S620Ti - or any of my other regs that I had at the time.

My gut feeling is that we humans are not so accustomed or adapted to really having to suck our air in. On the other hand, we do lots of things where we develop our ability to blow out against pressure. Inflating balloons, playing wind instruments, and many other examples come to mind.

So, my gut suggests to me that I am MUCH more sensitive (and averse) to things that make it harder to inhale, and I am fairly INsensitive to things that create some resistance to exhaling.

At least, that's my theory for why the S620Ti measures as having a lower WOB on a machine, but the G260 FELT better to breathe with at depth (my test went to around 90 feet, IIRC).

 

[Geo7]

I'll speculate that they can rate their M1 first stage for 100% O2 in the US, but the insurance costs would increase?