The Mis-Adventures of my AOW class- READ!

[Paul168341]

With the right instructor, there's nothing wrong with starting AOW shortly after finishing OW. Advanced is a term which I hate to use for it. There's really nothing "Advanced" about it. Or, there shouldn't be. "Advanced" is not what you need to be to sign-up, nor is it what you are when you complete. All it really does is expand on the basic skills learned in OW. OW gives you the base fundamentals required to dive, AOW shows you what you can do with it. Navigation, techniques for "deep" (over 60', not 100') diving , intro to night diving, or whatever specialties interest you. One way to "ease" into it is to do the "Adventures in Diving" Which is only 3 specialties. One of these I'd reccomend is PPB.
Shellbird, I'm glad you've found an instructor you feel you can trust; that's important. I'm guessing you go to Jack's? If you ever want to do any classes that they may not be running, send me a line, I'll be happy to help any way possible.

Michael, Good luck! I wish the best for you.

 

[shellbird]

International SCUBA in Southington. NAUI. Where are you out of?

 

[Paul168341]

Hmmm, they must be fairly new.

Scuba Shack, Rocky Hill _ PADI, soon also to be SDI/TDI x-over

 

[NJDiver_34]

I have been diving for several years in NJ and live along the coast as well. There are several things that I don't understand

1.) During the AOW course the instructor should have been with you during the deep and wreck dives...why wasn't he?

2.) You almost always do your deepest dive first! Have I misunderstood your post that your deepest depth was on your second dive.

3.) The only way a boat in NJ will let you dive is if you dont have a pony bottle unless you are accompanied by an instructor who then must have one.

I feel bad for you dude and I hope that you will continue to dive after all this is said and done. I have seen time and time again air mismanagment by divers and it isnt necessary. When I start with 3000 psi in my bottle my turn around is at 1500 psi. For some that may be conservitive but one thing I can say...I have never ran out of air.

I watch as divers switch to their pony rigs so they can get more bottom time. This should be avoided at all times... a pony should not be a source of extended bottom time but a reserve for an out of air emergency.

Some of the posts included are from other parts of the world where they do things differently. In New Jersey where the water is cold and viz is rotten you have to be smart and always on guard.

Good Luck

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Originally posted by NJDiver_34

3.) The only way a boat in NJ will let you dive is if you dont have a pony bottle unless you are accompanied by an instructor who then must have one.

I'm curious about the pony requirement as I am considering making the trek to New Jersey/New York for some wreck diving.

When deep or wreck diving, I sling a bottle of 40%, 50% or 80% and use it for ascents. I can't necessarily breathe it at depth without risking O2 tox, but it is a redundant air source. Does this count?

Will I need the pony with doubles?

If my singles have an H-valve with two first and second stages, will I still need the pony?

Thanks

 

[Spectre]

Originally posted by NJDiver_34

1.) During the AOW course the instructor should have been with you during the deep and wreck dives...why wasn't he?

2.) You almost always do your deepest dive first! Have I misunderstood your post that your deepest depth was on your second dive.

Your first question is my number one question. Where was the instructor during all of this?

My other observation is related to point 2... You did your deep first, and then wreck, with wreck being deeper than deep? Huh? Perhaps the instructor misunderstood and thought you were supposed to do the 'Deep' dive first, not the one that is actually deeper!

I don't know what's more frightening... these stories, or the realization that I, a diving newbie, technically have enough experience to be in the instructor program!

 

[MichaelG]

Sorry for not following up to all the questions posted in response to my thread, but as you can tell, I have been quite busy since I posted the original thread.

The follow-up is as follows:

I did a 6hour recompression using Navy Dive Table 6 on Monday. I did another 2 3hour compressions on Tuesday using the Navy Dive Table 3.

As of right now, it appears that all the symptoms I started out with are still present but only in the left arm. My right arm is absolutely fine and all signs of fatigue are gone. Even more annoying is that under pressure the pain is/was still present to some degree. This leads to several possible conclusions:
1) I am bent and the damage is already done and cannot be corrected.
2) I am not bent or no longer bent but do have a pinched nerve which is still causing the slight numbness is my hand.
3) I need to see a Neurologist.

For the past 2 days, I have seen 3 different doctors to have them try to explain to me what may be causing the problems I am having now that only started the day after my deep dive disaster. In all cases, they say the symptoms of DCS is present and based on my dive experience on Saturday, the chances of it being DCS is greater.

I personaly believe that what I am experiencing is overexertion on the forearm muscles and a strained muscle or a pinched nerve. However, to knock that theory down, I had a neurological exam performed by my general practicioner and he states that he does not believe I have a pinched nerve and the symptoms to him are certainly suspicous enough to warrant a look at Hyperbarric therapy for DCS. I am not a doctor so I must assume that the possiblity of having DCS is very high.

My hyperbarric therapy is over and I wil not be going back because it seems as if I am not getting anymore relief after 3 dives in the chamber. After the first dive, there was relief in the outer elbow joint of the left arm which has not reappeared, but other than that, I have not seen any more improvement to 100%. After each chamber therapy, I feel good for about a 1/2 hour, but then the symptoms begin to come back.

As for some of the questions asked. Yes, we did a shallow dive first and then a deeper dive second. MY dive instructor was NOT with me on the second dive. In fact, I do not know where he was. I can only assume he felt that I/we had the experience and mentality necessary to do such a dive.

I am not sure if I blame my instructor. He was an excellent instructor who felt I/we were more than competent to handle the challenges ahead. I would most certainly dive with him again, however, I do feel that such dangerous dives should be closely monitored by an instructor before/during/after the dive. There was no dive plan other than a quick 1 minute verbal speech on what we should do. There was no RDP planning before or after each dive. There was no discussion about maximum depths and time for the dives. It was simply a matter of go down there and head back to the line when you reach 1500psi. He stressed the importance of not running out of air, but that does not do anyone much good when they actualy do face the challenges of running out of air. In fact, 3 of the 5 students did run out of air on at least one of the two dives.

The failure in my dive began when my buddy did not feel it was necessary to head back at 1500psi. The breakdown was that he was not aware of my inexperience and my higher than usual air consumption because of my experience. Had he been aware, perhaps he would not have gone out so far from the anchor line. Perhaps it is my fault for not demanding that we stay close to the line, perhaps it is my instructors fault for not making sure I was with another instructor who would be aware of my experience level. In my own defense, my lack of experience did not have me prepared to handle the challenges of deep diving and the naivity of the dangers because of that lack of experience did not make me a forcefull diver. In my other defense, we were on a wreck-reel. I did not know how to get back. I was too nervous about messing up to leave my buddy because I was not sure if I would get my self killed if I left my buddy who was more experienced than me.

In the end, I place most of the blame on the dive shop for not making sure that I had all the necessary equipment available to me to make sure I had a safe dive. Additionaly, it was/is their responsiblity to make sure that I as a student am in safe hands and that procedures are followed to make sure everything is carefuly controlled. The fact that they scoffed at the idea that I wanted a pony bottle and also scoffed at the idea that I was mad that I only had 2700psi of air in each tank is what REALLY pisses me off. I am not looking to place blame on anyone, but it is certainly annoying that things happened the way it did. I was inexperienced and did not know what to expect.

--MichaelG

 

[Kaffphine]

MichaelG- "I am not sure if I blame my instructor. He was an excellent instructor who felt I/we were more than competent to handle the challenges ahead. I would most certainly dive with him again, however, I do feel that such dangerous dives should be closely monitored by an instructor before/during/after the dive. There was no dive plan other than a quick 1 minute verbal speech on what we should do. There was no RDP planning before or after each dive. There was no discussion about maximum depths and time for the dives. "

From the really good advice and info from everyone posts I'm not quite sure if you're getting how many thing that went wrong and are wrong here. You instructor may be a good and very well liked diver, but it would sound like he shouldn't be teaching diving. You're instructor must be with you on the dive. And even if all he had to do was be sure you made the dive, turning a relativtily new diver loose on Jersey wrecks- bad idea. The Algol isn't a dangous dive. That wreck can easily be planned as a nice safe recreational dive, it's actually a pretty good wreck to start on. With your instructor not being there (same ocean diving doesn't count) the dive plan being only a quick minute! The crew going through entry and exit, brief layout of the wreck and what part they think they hooked should take more than 'a quick min' and that doesn't even being to count your dive plan then anything extra you need to do for your class.

In the end, I place most of the blame on the dive shop for not making sure that I had all the necessary equipment available to me to make sure I had a safe dive. Additionaly, it was/is their responsiblity to make sure that I as a student am in safe hands and that procedures are followed to make sure everything is carefuly controlled.

You're a certified diver, right? You decided to actually make the dive, right? Yes the shop told you they had pony's available then didn't (shame on them, you did reserve right?), but try another shop, see if you could borrow one from someone, or delay the ocean trip. While yes it makes sense for a shop to do all it can to keep their already certifed students (AOW, EANx, rescue, ect...) safe, you are a diver and should take an active role in making sure your dives are safe.


I'll get off my soap box now, but I just hope you realize that how many thing went wrong here. Diving with razor thin safety marngines is a good way to have a very short diving career. I'm still curious as to what boat you used.

 

[java]

Originally posted by MichaelG
<snip/>
As of right now, it appears that all the symptoms I started out with are still present but only in the left arm. My right arm is absolutely fine and all signs of fatigue are gone. Even more annoying is that under pressure the pain is/was still present to some degree. This leads to several possible conclusions:
1) I am bent and the damage is already done and cannot be corrected.
2) I am not bent or no longer bent but do have a pinched nerve which is still causing the slight numbness is my hand.
3) I need to see a Neurologist.


I personaly believe that what I am experiencing is overexertion on the forearm muscles and a strained muscle or a pinched nerve. However, to knock that theory down, I had a neurological exam performed by my general practicioner and he states that he does not believe I have a pinched nerve and the symptoms to him are certainly suspicous enough to warrant a look at Hyperbarric therapy for DCS. I am not a doctor so I must assume that the possiblity of having DCS is very high.

As a fellow newbie NJ diver I wish you all the best and a full recovery. I hope you are right and it is not DCS.

I am not sure if I blame my instructor. He was an excellent instructor who felt I/we were more than competent to handle the challenges ahead. I would most certainly dive with him again, however, I do feel that such dangerous dives should be closely monitored by an instructor before/during/after the dive.

I would be pretty angry at the LDS / Instructor. The reason you took the course was to advance in a supervised enviroment. That obviously did not happen based on what I read above.
It is beyond me how a LDS takes $$$ from an inexperianced diver for a course and does not insure that you are supervised by an instructor. I am planing a refresher and AOW and hope to avoid what you went through. I will do my best to learn from the horror story that you went through.

perhaps it is my instructors fault for not making sure I was with another instructor who would be aware of my experience level. In my own defense, my lack of experience did not have me prepared to handle the challenges of deep diving and the naivity of the dangers because of that lack of experience did not make me a forcefull diver. In my other defense, we were on a wreck-reel. I did not know how to get back. I was too nervous about messing up to leave my buddy because I was not sure if I would get my self killed if I left my buddy who was more experienced than me.

In the end, I place most of the blame on the dive shop for not making sure that I had all the necessary equipment available to me to make sure I had a safe dive. Additionaly, it was/is their responsiblity to make sure that I as a student am in safe hands and that procedures are followed to make sure everything is carefuly controlled. The fact that they scoffed at the idea that I wanted a pony bottle and also scoffed at the idea that I was mad that I only had 2700psi of air in each tank is what REALLY pisses me off. I am not looking to place blame on anyone, but it is certainly annoying that things happened the way it did. I was inexperienced and did not know what to expect.
--MichaelG

I can't believe that they let you on such a dive with a non full tank. I am curious as to their reaction to what happened to you. Did you call them to discuss it? Might be worth wile to let the LDS read the thread.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Dear MichaelG:

First, let me say that I truly hope that your symptoms subside over time and that you are suffering from some type of muscle strain or other non-DCS ailment.

Second, PLEASE stop for a minute and think about your last post. There are some knowledge gaps that must be corrected before you go near another dive.

First, it sounds like you are seriously underequipped for the environment. No lights, inadequate gas supply, lack of redundant backups and G-d knows what else. Get to a shop that you can trust (or post here, we will help) and find out what you need in order to dive safely. After picking our your equipment, get some instruction in how to use it. Don't tell me that you already know how. If you did, you might not be bent.

Second, whatever training you get should come from another shop and from a different instructor, particularly if your advanced instructor was the one who certified your OW class. You seem unaware of certain basic aspects of diving, including the proper use of the RDP, gas management, dive planning and the dangers associated with reverse profiles. Proper instruction will show you how to dive safely and within recreational limits.

Third, stop defending the instructor. He may be the nicest person on Earth, but that doesn't change the fact that you got bent when you were supposed to be under his instruction and after a totally negligent dive plan and brief. Leaving you alone violates standards and common sense. If you don't believe me, please explain why he wasn't supervising you and why you were doing an instructional dive with a non-instructor. In addition, please explain why an instructor would tell you to do your turn at 1500 lbs when, as posted earlier, such a maneuver would leave you with about 300 psi on the surface and no reserve. Finally, please explain why you were allowed to make the second dive after your first OOA instead of being put on the O2 bottle after the first ascent. The fact that you were not symptomatic is not relevant as O2 is a good way of preventing or minimizing DCS. I would not necessarily expect an OW diver to know this, but I damn well would expect it from the instructor, the DM and the boat captain. It could not have hurt and might have helped.

Fourth, you are placing blame everywhere but on yourself. If you are ready for so-called advanced diving, then you are ready for the responsibility of planning your dive, handling the RDP, managing your gas and equipping yourself properly.

The more I hear about your dives, the more I'm surprised that we aren't reading a post entitled "New Jersey Diver Dies On The Algol".

Once again, please READ the posts and incorporate them into your dive planning.