The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[OneBrightGator]

Genesis once bubbled...
Ok, now explain the difference here to the shop where I go to have the warranty problem taken care of:

1. I buy the <insert item> from a LDS in Atlanta. I live in Florida. I return home to Florida, and it has a problem. I take it to the LDS for warranty repairs/replacement.

2. I buy the <insert item> from LP. I live in Florida. I take it to the LDS for warranty repairs/replacement.

In neither case did the LDS that I take it to make a single nickel off me - I supported them in neither case.

And by the way, be careful with your answer here Ben, because collusion between retailers to fix the market (this is NOT limited to price) is a per-se violation of anti-trust law.

Now what did you say your answer was again?

I'd like to point out that the comment you addressed is an OPINION, not fact.

I believe the difference is intent, in your example, did you buy the item in GA because you needed it then and could not wait to get back to your LDS or did you do it specifically to save money? Service after the sale is built into LDS prices, so if you didn't pay for something in the first place, why do you expect to have it? Buying from LP indicates that you were not in dire need of the item and bought it simply on price and you get what you pay for.

Dive shops operate on an honor system of sorts, you pay a little more, but you get a little more, such as all the things we like having a dive shop for and service after the sale, which should include promopt warranty service. If you don't want to enter into that agreement, that's fine, don't expect the dive shop to hold up their end if you won't hold up yours.

Eventually classes, fills and service will be much more expensive, gear will be competitive with online prices and advice and service after the sale will cost you, until then the parasites will feed. One thing will stay the same however, there will always be someone complaining about prices.

Ben

 

[Karl_in_Calif]

Normally a scuba store with an onsite pool is a pretty good store. We have 4 like that in my area, of which 2 are prospering and the other 2 are struggling.

Of the 2 that are struggling, one is in a great location, while the other is in a really poor out-of-the-way location.

The one that is in a great location is too small. They need more floor space so that they can carry more sizes and perhaps carry more product lines.

The two stores that are doing well, that have a pool as well, have vast floorspace and many product lines in almost all sizes. They are about 30 miles apart from each other, so they do not really compete, geographically with each other.

The market is unforgiving of weakness.

 

[Genesis]

I believe the difference is intent, in your example, did you buy the item in GA because you needed it then and could not wait to get back to your LDS or did you do it specifically to save money? Service after the sale is built into LDS prices, so if you didn't pay for something in the first place, why do you expect to have it?

Again, Mr. Gator, answer the question please.

In neither case did the shop where I take the item for service get what is (or is not) "built into the price."

WHY I bought it in Atlanta is irrelavent. Maybe my other one broke when I was there. Maybe I just happened to stop into a nice looking store and bought something. Maybe they had a nice ad in the paper and my cousin Vinny told me about the fact that they kicked my local dive shop's azz on pricing.

The fact remains that in both cases the local dive shop did not earn one thin dime from me in the procurement of that item.

IF the shop is going to use the argument that "you didn't pay for service" for denying the warranty service, then it is dishonest - and is in fact a collusive act - to provide the service only when the product came from certani sellers who happen to be the same, full-price retailers, but from which they cannot recover the cost of the service rendered.

An act taken in collusion with another retailer, irrespective of how many are involved, that acts to restrain the market or attempt to "punish" a seller for pricing in the way they seem fit is a per-se violation of anti-trust law.

If you think not, go get on the phone with a few other LDSs, discuss pricing on a conference call, TAPE IT, and send it to the FTC and loudly admit what you did by doing so.

Be ready for the knock on the door, because it WILL come.

What you are describing is no different. The issue at hand does not have to be the price sold at in dollars; the point is that your action is an attempt not to only service that which you get paid for (which is defensible, but you won't make many friends - or keep many customers - that way) but also to punish unrelated sellers who do not adhere to a pricing policy you wish to see enforced.

This kind of "blackballing", when undertaken as a collusive act, is illegal Ben.

But heh - thanks for the admission. You never know who might be reading the board!

 

[5615mike]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...
Ah... this disection will be fun...



Great, like I already said once before, if you buy the product from an authorized dealer, online or not, then another authorized dealer should help you if it's a manufacturers problem (i.e. warranty), if it's not covered by the manufacturers warranty don't expect any help, you didn't pay for it (the help, that is).



I didn't limit a thing, I used them to illustrate a situation where warranty service and/or extra help should not be expected nor will be given. This is not my "point of view" it's the truth.



By the way, Mike, a dive shop that is not a Mares authorized dealer has no responsibility to support their product, the fact that they are an authorized dealer is implied, but evidently you missed that part.


As far as I'm concerned, if you bought the mask cheaper online then you should deal with warranty problems online. You turn your back on your LDS to save a couple bucks and then would be surprised when they turn their back on you, what did you expect?

Ben

Ben, Ben,

Your confused. The whole Mares analogy was not mine....it came from Cinci. I just quoted him. HE SAID "If the other dive shop that is an offical Mares dealer does'nt help you out. REPORT THEM TO MARES ASAFP. They're supposed to support the Mares product and it doesn't matter where you purchased it"

Why in the world would I expect an unauthorized dealer of a product to deal with warranty issues? Don't know where you got the idea that I do. I understand that if I have a warranty problem I should go to the source of my purchase. Could not agree with you more. Cinci made the statement and I was just trying to get clairrification.

Listen, I tried to buy my gear from my LDS where I did my training. Bought some but most I bought on line since they could not or would not touch the pricing. I saved over $1300 but it's not like I didn't try to buy from them first. They told me in several cases the prices I told them were lower than their cost. The LDS has since gone OOB. Why, don't know for sure but there are rumors that I won't address. If there was not such a vast difference in cost I would have gladly bought local. My whole point with Cinci and his attitude about calling all of us web buyers lowlifes and the end all problem of the failing LDS and scuba as a whole.

If we don't have an LDS that is willing to work with us or they don't carry the gear we want then what to you expect people to do?

 

[Dryglove]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3633002752&category=16056

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

5615mike once bubbled...


Ben, Ben,

Your confused. The whole Mares analogy was not mine....it came from Cinci. I just quoted him. HE SAID "If the other dive shop that is an offical Mares dealer does'nt help you out. REPORT THEM TO MARES ASAFP. They're supposed to support the Mares product and it doesn't matter where you purchased it"

Why in the world would I expect an unauthorized dealer of a product to deal with warranty issues? Don't know where you got the idea that I do. I understand that if I have a warranty problem I should go to the source of my purchase. Could not agree with you more. Cinci made the statement and I was just trying to get clairrification.

Listen, I tried to buy my gear from my LDS where I did my training. Bought some but most I bought on line since they could not or would not touch the pricing. I saved over $1300 but it's not like I didn't try to buy from them first. They told me in several cases the prices I told them were lower than their cost. The LDS has since gone OOB. Why, don't know for sure but there are rumors that I won't address. If there was not such a vast difference in cost I would have gladly bought local. My whole point with Cinci and his attitude about calling all of us web buyers lowlifes and the end all problem of the failing LDS and scuba as a whole.

If we don't have an LDS that is willing to work with us or they don't carry the gear we want then what to you expect people to do?

56150983487309407089734Mikey,

Lowlifes?? When did I call you guys or you a lowlife? Oh yeah, you made that up too.

Look if a dive shop didn't work with you then fine, buy on-line. But did you want them to give it away or could of you settled for a nice discount and years of freebies like pool time and an occasional air fill, etc. etc. Probably some free reg. servicing too.

 

[OneBrightGator]

Genesis once bubbled...


Again, Mr. Gator, answer the question please.

In neither case did the shop where I take the item for service get what is (or is not) "built into the price."

WHY I bought it in Atlanta is irrelavent. Maybe my other one broke when I was there. Maybe I just happened to stop into a nice looking store and bought something. Maybe they had a nice ad in the paper and my cousin Vinny told me about the fact that they kicked my local dive shop's azz on pricing.

The fact remains that in both cases the local dive shop did not earn one thin dime from me in the procurement of that item.

IF the shop is going to use the argument that "you didn't pay for service" for denying the warranty service, then it is dishonest - and is in fact a collusive act - to provide the service only when the product came from certani sellers who happen to be the same, full-price retailers, but from which they cannot recover the cost of the service rendered.

An act taken in collusion with another retailer, irrespective of how many are involved, that acts to restrain the market or attempt to "punish" a seller for pricing in the way they seem fit is a per-se violation of anti-trust law.

If you think not, go get on the phone with a few other LDSs, discuss pricing on a conference call, TAPE IT, and send it to the FTC and loudly admit what you did by doing so.

Be ready for the knock on the door, because it WILL come.

What you are describing is no different. The issue at hand does not have to be the price sold at in dollars; the point is that your action is an attempt not to only service that which you get paid for (which is defensible, but you won't make many friends - or keep many customers - that way) but also to punish unrelated sellers who do not adhere to a pricing policy you wish to see enforced.

This kind of "blackballing", when undertaken as a collusive act, is illegal Ben.

But heh - thanks for the admission. You never know who might be reading the board!

Uh Oh!!! maybe the FTC is going to come after me... whoop-de-fricking-do, nice unsubstantiated threat.

The price for service is built into every LDSs prices, so that if you have a problem with an item bought from your LDS and it breaks somewhere else there is a LDS there that will help you and vice versa. I'm sure for every bit of help your LDS has given to an out-of-town customer an out-of-town LDS has given to one of their customers. It goes along with the "honor system" idea.

Like I said, it's all intent, if you feel it's right to turn your back on your LDS and then expect their help later then by all means go ahead, just don't be shocked when you're not welcome. There are costs to run a LDS, if you don't help pay them, why should you reap any benefits? (and don't give me anymore bs about which specific shop you pay, because it all evens out in the end).

And like I said before, eventually LDS's attitude will shift more towards how you feel and everything will come with a cost, not something I'd like to see, but then again I'm the one supporting the LDSs.

Ben

 

[ScottyK]

LOL- Stowe Vermont???

That might've been a bad decision with regards to location.

It's a great place to open a ski shop, but hardly a divers paradise

 

[Genesis]

by the Florida AG's office when I discussed this matter with them.

They wanted to know if there was any published evidence available that dive shops were, in any way, colluding in such a fashion.

I wonder if they're reading here..... you never know!

 

[5615mike]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


56150983487309407089734Mikey,

Lowlifes?? When did I call you guys or you a lowlife? Oh yeah, you made that up too.

Look if a dive shop didn't work with you then fine, buy on-line. But did you want them to give it away or could of you settled for a nice discount and years of freebies like pool time and an occasional air fill, etc. etc. Probably some free reg. servicing too.

OK.......ya got me...........I read into your words of those of us who buy on line were the real problem. I appologize for putting words in your mouth Cinci. Now, you seem to believe that I made something else up...........what might that be Cinci? I have confesed to drawing my own conclusions from your inferences.....won't do that again...........now, what is it that you feel I have made up?

Like I said, I was willing to work with them and pay more but I guess you didn't read..........$1300 is not expecting them to give it away. Nice discounts and years of freebies..........yea right.......guess you did not read on once again........they are OUT OF BUSINESS. So, would you not agre that in this case I would have just been burning money. If not then your made of money. I'm not. Now, since were on the subject why don't you address the question that I posed to you earlier.......

If a person does not have a LDS that will work with them or they do not have an LDS that sells the gear you want then what are you expected to do as a consumer?