The General Angst Over the PADI eLearning Program

[Thalassamania]

You guys are too pessimistic. My son has a take home final exam for his SSI open water. All the self assessments are open book too. But it doesn't take an instructor very much time to realize that he had a good grasp of the theories. There would be no difference between his doing the homework on line vs reading from a book. Actually, he used the program that Scubatoy generously give free to Scubaboard members to drill on the dive tables.

There is no difference between e-learning and text book learning. The only disadvantage is that you don't have the book to refer to before a dive ... My guess is, that they still will recommend a basic book to go along with the e-course.

Again, the medium should not be the issue. And if you want it before a dive put it on a DVD and you can use one of those portable players or even perhaps an IPOD.

My Dad and I learned to dive with nothing but a book and gear. No instructor involved, but our water skills, readiness and reading ability (at least his) were up at the top of the scale. Conventional wisdom today is that this can’t (or at least shouldn’t) be done but there are still plenty of folks out there are capable (or more capable) than we were. There is no question but that eLearning, be it web, DVD, CD or whatever can, as a result of the multimedia capabilities, be far more effective as a teaching tool than a book. So since I learned with no formal training (well, just what my Dad helped me learn) how do I come now to be an advocate for the opposite extreme? Mainly by having made all the mistakes (and feeling lucky to have survived in many cases) and having watched others make many of the mistakes, and realizing that it is indeed possible to channel at least the essence of fifty years of experience through a 100 hour course. In fact you can likely channel the essentials (leaving rescue and some other items for later) through a 40 to 50 hour course. But you can’t even begin to do so with a weekend or three day cram.

 

[hvulin]

I use e-learning all the time at work (non-diving) but only as a tool to choose what I really want to learn! When I choose, I go and enroll to an actual course! e-learning should not be used as proof of competence, or Darwin will have to prove again that he was right and our gene pool is becoming cleaner and cleaner...

btw. it's only a matter of time when you'll get a buddy that will say he doesn't know how to use a computer because he/she didn't click on that link in the course In such situations you'll just have to pray that Darwin isn't looking...

PS I do dive solo from time to time and find it much safer that with many e-divers or just "divers" that roam the world...

 

[TCDiver1]

Personally i don't think there's a "general angst" over eLearning ... PADI or otherwise. IMO It's pretty SOP in that you have a relatively vocal minority chirping on about the inadequacies of a system they don't agree with. Nothing new there.

From my experience it works just fine for most people, just like correspondence courses have for decades prior to the internet. Scuba ain't rocket engineering and most people don't need to sit in front of an instructor to grasp the majority of the concepts IMO. I think most people appreciate the added option.

My main concern with eLearning is that students will get little or no academic face to face interaction with a qualified instructor. Some need more than others but attempting to eliminate face time 100% is a mistake IMO.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I have no huge issues with e-learning. I earned one of my degrees through an online program administered by a state university. I've also taught online college courses. Personally, as an instructor, I prefer teaching in the classroom. It's a lot more fun. As a student, it depends on the subject. Some I prefer to do online, some in person. Discussion can be good and you just can't get quality discussion on line most of the time.

At first I thought I was going to have issues with PADI's program because my students won't be able to partake in it (I'm an independent), but my opinion has changed. I don't plan on changing my teaching methods. My students do the independent studying now anyway. We discuss the knowledge reviews. And I interject with the things I believe they should know. Even if they do the e-learning and are able to come to me, I'm still going to tell them the things I want them to know. As it is, a lot of my teaching occurs during briefings and debriefings, and it occurs in a manner that the students may not even realize they're getting lessons.

It just bothers me that PADI is doing one more thing to isolate and alienate independent instructors. We may not be a large group, but we are a vocal one, and our ranks keep growing.

 

[J.R.]

What I find interesting in this thread is that there really is no body of discussion that identifies how the student benefits in any real way from this "innovation".

There is a lot of rationalization, fear abatement, etc., etc... but there is nothing that says how this is going to turn out BETTER divers or improve the quality of the product... only... make it more available at a greater profit margin.

The part of all of this that I find disturbing is that in this, as in many threads where the 'quality' of PADI training is kicked around, is that NOWHERE do I hear any tone or percieve a focus on of how the student's experience, education or skills will be improved. I hear lots of discussion relating to "minimums" (with a cavieat that the instructor CAN take it somewhat beyond... within limits)... I hear lots of discussion about how it can be made "easier", "faster"... but never CHEAPER or BETTER.

The whole process *seems* to about providing the least for the most in the fastest manner possible...

I'm willing to admit I could be wrong about all this... but I'd really like to see more of a justification for these "innovations" beyond "it's the wave of the future... everybody's doing it..." or the defensive arguement of "well... what's WRONG with it..."

Where is the thread and the discussion about what can be done to make BETTER more concietious and skilled divers?

If you market to the lowest common denominator... that's precisely what you'll end up with...

 

[Thalassamania]

What I find interesting in this thread is that there really is no body of discussion that identifies how the student benefits in any real way from this "innovation".

I did mention earlier: "There is no question but that eLearning, be it web, DVD, CD or whatever can, as a result of the multimedia capabilities, be far more effective as a teaching tool than a book."

There is a lot of rationalization, fear abatement, etc., etc... but there is nothing that says how this is going to turn out BETTER divers or improve the quality of the product... only... make it more available at a greater profit margin.

It's not going to make better divers, just (as you note) more money for less effort for some people. Well, that depends on your view of the lecture skills of the median PADI Instructor.

The part of all of this that I find disturbing is that in this, as in many threads where the 'quality' of PADI training is kicked around, is that NOWHERE do I hear any tone or perceive a focus on of how the student's experience, education or skills will be improved. I hear lots of discussion relating to "minimums" (with a caveat that the instructor CAN take it somewhat beyond... within limits)... I hear lots of discussion about how it can be made "easier", "faster"... but never CHEAPER or BETTER.

We're always beating that dead horse, not dead because it's false, but dead because it's true and no one seems to be able to find a way to do anything about it.

The whole process *seems* to about providing the least for the most in the fastest manner possible...
I'm willing to admit I could be wrong about all this... but I'd really like to see more of a justification for these "innovations" beyond "it's the wave of the future... everybody's doing it..." or the defensive argument of "well... what's WRONG with it..."

Where is the thread and the discussion about what can be done to make BETTER more conscientious and skilled divers?

If you market to the lowest common denominator... that's precisely what you'll end up with...

You've no wrong, you've got it right.

 

[PhilEllis]

Lots of great comments on this thread. This is a subject that can be expected to draw lots of concern, lots of opinions.

The medium is important because in a lecture, the instructor can add to the content when the PADI material is inadequate. It is more difficult when all the content is on the internet, and the instructor has no control over the process.

EVERYTHING about the eLearning program encourages the instructor to continue to do just that....add content in any area where the instructor feels it is warranted. Nothing will change in that regard, except maybe providing the instructor with additional time to add more content to the class.

Then how about if we think of it this way. Do your online class. Follow that up with one face to face classroom session. The instructor adds what he feels is needed, answers questions, tests each student, and then schedule the pool sessions for those who pass so far. Cuts down on the amount of days I have to take off just to show my face in a classroom.

EXACTLY what PADI has in mind!

I know it's already been stated here, but just because it sounds like a good idea does not make it a good idea. I can't imagine a new OW student not having interaction with an instructor in a classroom setting. I can't imagine giving the keys to a potentially lethal sport to someone who answered some online questions correctly. I can't imagine me not being able to ask dumb/not so dumb/and potentially insightful questions of my classroom instructor. I have no problem with e-classrooms for other levels in diver instruction...just not beginning instruction. It's dangerous.

Every instructor will have adequate time and exposure to the students to measure the student's real understanding and every student will have adequate time to ask the instructor any question they choose. Nothing should change in that regard.

e-learning as far as i see it so far also is only available to shops, the person becomes tied to that for the practical training.
This pretty much means independent instructors cant offer it so putting them at a disadvantage.
Things like this and PIC Online etc swing the balance towards shops and away from instructor.

There is no doubt, I see PADI moving more of their energy toward support of the IRRC member stores, the places where a vast majority of certifications take place. PADI will need to confront the issue of independent instrutors in time.

And there is also the very real possibility that some less scrupulous owners will see the opportunity to do just the thing you mentioned. Take an unknown, give a few perfunctory pool sessions, 4 quick ow dives, and voila! Certified diver and we all have seen someone who looks like that is just what happened even with the way things are now.

That possibility existed yesterday, it exists today, and will continue to exist. There is no protection from the unscrupulous.

What was so horrendously wrong with classroom learning that e-failing is the solution to? I will never take an online course for SCUBA, and I think like-minded people who want quality and demanding instruction agree with me.

Nothing is wrong with classroom learning. Much of it will continue for the upcoming years. In fact, I would bet that the vast majority of new scuba students in the next 5 years attend class, with the same PADI Go Dive student crew pack, just as it has always been done. eLearning is an attempt to provide a medium of training that CUSTOMERS (remember, students are customers) may be more comfortable with in the future.

What I find interesting in this thread is that there really is no body of discussion that identifies how the student benefits in any real way from this "innovation".

Now that is the best question yet. Having observed a VERY large number of open water classes, I must say that the quality of the presentation of the academic material varies quite a bit from instructor to instructor and class to class. The student (customer) benefits from eLearning with a very concise and scientific presentation of the material. Remember, PADI classes (as is the case with almost all agencies) are "skills obtained" classes. There is no prescribed amount of time required, simply a performance standard to be met. With eLearning, a student can spend WHATEVER amount of time is necessary for complete comprehension of the material. Those who study well and learn fast are spared the tedium of long lectures on material they already understand. Those who learn slowly and require more time are not forced to get a lot of material in a limited amount of lecture time.

The student benefits by being able to learn a leisure pursuit at their place of choosing, at their time of choosing, at a pace that suits them best. This may well make scuba training available to people with more limited time than what was available in the past. This doesn't mean they will learn less.

eLearning provides ANOTHER method of learning, presenting the entire population of students with the learning method they prefer. Some will elect for traditional classes, done with classroom lectures and the PADI Go Dive crew pack. Some will elect PADI eLearning, supplimented with communications with the dive instructor both in person and through the electronic methods provided in the eLearning course structure.

It is typical of divers who have ALREADY obtained their passport to this sport to immediately want to make it more difficult for those that follow them. It is almost as if they are saying "there are enough divers....let's make it more difficult for the rest". This is a bad tendency. Our sport needs more divers.....not less. Remember, not everyone is as avid a diver as those that participate on this board. Many dive only once a year, typically under the direction of a guide or divemaster, and that is all they intend to do. eLearning allows them to participate in this sport with the method of learning that they choose. Instructors cannot dictate how students learn. They learn how they learn.

Phil Ellis

 

[Thalassamania]

That possibility existed yesterday, it exists today, and will continue to exist. There is no protection from the unscrupulous.

That issue is a red herring and should be disposed of. QC is always a problem, many folks feel that PADI’s current QC is a joke, so I don’t expect it will get any worse.

Now that is the best question yet. Having observed a VERY large number of open water classes, I must say that the quality of the presentation of the academic material varies quite a bit from instructor to instructor and class to class.

Amen, brother.

The student (customer) benefits from eLearning with a very concise and scientific presentation of the material. Remember, PADI classes (as is the case with almost all agencies) are "skills obtained" classes.

This depends on the quality of the material, let’s all remember the old VCR based “Demand Educator” that I, for one, found to be woefully inadequate and not worth what was gained by being “self paced.”

It is typical of divers who have ALREADY obtained their passport to this sport to immediately want to make it more difficult for those that follow them. It is almost as if they are saying "there are enough divers....let's make it more difficult for the rest".

I think that you’re way off base there. I think that those who propose raising standards are simply recognizing the inadequacies of the training that they received.

Our sport needs more divers.....not less.

Maybe you do, maybe your business does, and maybe an agency or an instructor or even a manufacturer does, but “our sport?” Hardly.

Remember, not everyone is as avid a diver as those that participate on this board. Many dive only once a year, typically under the direction of a guide or divemaster, and that is all they intend to do. .

Then, as has been suggested for many years, have certifications that expire, that are environment specific and that, when appropriate, require accompaniment by leadership personnel.

eLearning allows them to participate in this sport with the method of learning that they choose. Instructors cannot dictate how students learn. They learn how they learn.

Actually, in my experience, a competent instructor can have a huge influence on how a student learns.

 

[J.R.]

Phil -

Thanks for the cogent response... however, I'd like to pursue some of your answers with a couple more questions and thoughts:

Having observed a VERY large number of open water classes, I must say that the quality of the presentation of the academic material varies quite a bit from instructor to instructor and class to class. The student (customer) benefits from eLearning with a very concise and scientific presentation of the material.

I won't disagree with these observations in the least... but would ask how an e-formatted presentation would be superior to the textbook/classroom setting environment that currently exists. Even if the median instructor only 'echoed the book' in the classroom environment it *seems* that the textual material *is what it is*... the one major advantage, in my opinon, to the classroom environment is that students have the opportunity to allow one question to generate others. In an e-learning environment this spontanious development dosn't seem to have a mechanism to allow it to bloom. While I agree that the default argument that "it depends on the instructor" is valid... but does e-learning further encourage this discussion... or does it 'enable' marginal instructors to further avoid this process??

Remember, PADI classes (as is the case with almost all agencies) are "skills obtained" classes. There is no prescribed amount of time required, simply a performance standard to be met. With eLearning, a student can spend WHATEVER amount of time is necessary for complete comprehension of the material.

... and having a book would reduce a student's ability to spend as much time as they wish with the materials how?

Those who study well and learn fast are spared the tedium of long lectures on material they already understand. Those who learn slowly and require more time are not forced to get a lot of material in a limited amount of lecture time.

... again, the speed and efficiency arguement. But the question that I have is how do you KNOW that the student 'already understands'... this *seems* to be a "patient heal thyself" position. I don't teach SCUBA... but I have taught computer subjects... many students *think* they have the answsers until you phrase the question in a manner that isn't verbatum from the book... the then 'percieved understanding' tends to fall apart. Rote response does not equate to comprehension...

This doesn't mean they will learn less.

No arguement, that as a general arguement is accurate... and I concur that people learn at differing paces. But it also doesn't mean that they will learn more...

The problem is... how does an instructor, who gets a broad variety of customers interested in learning how to dive, separate the prodogies from the median? As it is, most of the 'knowledge reviews' are done more as a "look it up in the book" and copy down what it says. It isn't until the 'final exam' that there is what I consider to be an actual knowledge review... apart from any interactive classroom discussion (before, during and after the formal class setting). Your position is valid, in my opinion, to a point... but as e-learning is, as I understand it, to be a 'standard' and as all things seem to follow the path of least resistance...

eLearning provides ANOTHER method of learning, presenting the entire population of students with the learning method they prefer.

With respect... this is, in my opinion, marketing lingo not far removed from "everybody's doing it"... There is no question that it *can* be done... the question that isn't being asked is *should it be done*... we see the benefits... we hear about the benefits... but the "costs" aren't discussed.

It is typical of divers who have ALREADY obtained their passport to this sport to immediately want to make it more difficult for those that follow them. It is almost as if they are saying "there are enough divers....let's make it more difficult for the rest".

On this I'm going to strongly disagree. I have never run into anybody who wants things made *more* difficult than they had it... but I have seen the arugement strongly put forth that constantly REDUCING the standard is not a good thing. This is, flatly, a bogus arguement...

Our sport needs more divers.....not less. Remember, not everyone is as avid a diver as those that participate on this board. Many dive only once a year, typically under the direction of a guide or divemaster, and that is all they intend to do.

I would argue that, if anything, the 'occasional diver' has a GREATER need for a more thorough and complete approach to training than the 'avid diver'... knowledge and skills erode when they're not used. When a diver hits the water... avid or casual... the skills required to handle emergencies, deal with the unexpected (their situation or the situation of someone around them)... etc., etc. I may be missing the point of your arguement... but I don't see where being an 'avid' diver or a 'casual' diver would warrant any variation in fundimental training...

Using the above statement, one could make a strong arguement that PADI's OW cert should be, perhaps a "may only dive with a fully certified professional diver" limited certification. I'm not trying to be a wise***** here... but if there is ANY assumption that we can short circuit OW training because of an assumption that "casual divers" will generally be diving with a guide or divemaster" and that that makes things acceptable, it seems the wrong path has already been taken.

eLearning allows them to participate in this sport with the method of learning that they choose. Instructors cannot dictate how students learn. They learn how they learn.

... you're correct... instructors can not *dictate*... but they can influence, guide and faclitate... if the student already had all the answers it would seem that instructors would be irrelevant.

I repeat my fundimental question... "How is e-learning going to make BETTER divers?"

 

[Spratman]

Using the above statement, one could make a strong arguement that PADI's OW cert should be, perhaps a "may only dive with a fully certified professional diver" limited certification.

This already exists in the form of the PADI Scuba Diver course, and has been vilified by most instructors here. That was my first certification since I was at a resort. As it happens I liked it ALOT! This course was designed specifically for the prior mention people that only dive on vacation. You must dive with a certified professional.

I don't believe that e-learning is going to be better than class room instruction, just by the simple fact that you cannot ask questions. However, as Phil pointed out, I don't want to have to waste classroom time reiterating what I already know. It can streamline the instructors class, so he can dedicate more time to what he ascertains the class needs to spend more time on.

I have not taught scuba either, but I was a military instructor for three years. Platform instructor is pretty rigid in what you will teach, regardless of the students abilities. I had a group of civilians one time that had over 100 years of collective electronic knowledge and experience. I was told to teach the standard class. After two hours, they ask me to teach them what they really needed to know. I did and saved the Army many thousands of dollars, and they sent a letter to the commanding general about my willingness to adjust the class to their experience level. What did I get for my effort? I got my ***** chewed by nearly everyone because I deviated from the standardized criteria.

All that to get to the point of, why teach everyone the same way? Is a bored out of their mind student, just as apt to not listen, as a student who is breezing through the e-learning course material?

Curriculum or in this case, the medium, isn't as important as an instructor who can make an assessment in an hour as to the learning curve for the class and adjust to it. That is what I look at for an instructor. I have certs from PADI, SSI, and NAUI. I find most of the materials to have been the same. I'm staying with NAUI, because I have a great instructor, who goes above and beyond the baselines for the course.