The Ethics of Promoting Cave Diving

[RJP]

Hopefully this answers your question.

So... if that guy charged a lot for cave instruction there'd be no problem?



But seriously, training/standards issues are different than bargain-hunting/pricing issues.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Ok, last post on this specific incident. Jim, you did in fact bring this issue to TDI in June of 2013. At which point you were notified that the hypothetical (because no names, dates, or any specific facts were given) issue would certainly constitute a violation of TDI standards and you were requested TWICE to provide details (which were never provided) so the matter could be investigate. The issue did spark some productive discussion and a clarification in the Full Cave Instructor standards, which are now publicly available on the TDI website https://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/get-certified/Full-Cave-Instructor/

You thanked TDI for the response and candid answers to the issue.

We are talking about two entirely different incidents. The issues in 2013 were regarding two TDI cave instructors and ethical/legal issues. These were relayed to TDI management face to face and in writing. Several of us approached you and other upper management face to face with these issues, were paid lip service but were essentially ignored. We were actually told that as long as the instructors were teaching and sending in certs whatever happened in their personal lives was of no concern to TDI.

The incident in question now, regarding cave instructor training/certification issues occurred within the past few months. I did not bring this to your attention, nor any other TDI management as in my opinion it would be treated the same way as in 2013.

 

[Superlyte27]

Jim, I find this hard to believe. One or two weekends? Have you verified this story? We've got to be missing something.

Pete:

This stuff does happen. I co-taught a class with a popular instructor. Our student was from Russia who had no cave card at all. He spent 5 days with us and left for Russia an intro to cave instructor. I still have his paperwork, waivers, etc.

It doesn't surprise me at all to hear standards getting circumvented. Anyone remember Avery. He was a GM for a popular charter operation in Key Largo.

He had zero cave dives when I met him. 6 months later and 10 cave dives later he was a cave instructor. I think with TDI, not that the agency has any bearing.

But this is nothing new. And really, agency doesn't matter. Jim Wyatt used to tell me stories about NSS-CDS where the wife of a prominent figure couldn't (I'm going by memory) preform a mask clear, but still got green lit during the examination for becoming a cave instructor. You'd be shocked at the name and the popularity of that shop.

Hell, I know a husband and wife with IANTD who had NEVER been an Open Water Instructor, ever,.... Tom blessed them as full cave instructors right out of the box. And that was more than a decade ago. This is nothing new.

I personally know an instructor who became an Open Water instructor, and his IT had NEVER seen him make a single dive. The IT, was the Training Director of an agency.

Recently, I watched as someone who had never taught a single normoxic trimix class on OC or CCR, became a full trimix instructor for OC and CCR with a rubber stamp. Oh, the kicker, the diver didn't even possess a diver level normoxic trimix card for himself.

And this is the type of stuff that needs to be fixed. Me and Jim Wyatt are butting heads these days, but I really appreciate his thoroughness with me. I appreciate him making me wait a year from Intro Instructor to Full Cave Instructor. I appreciate him making me wait another year for Normoxic Trimix Instructor. I appreciate him making me take it slow, not get rushed, and really understand that without many classes, you really don't know what a bone head student might do.... Like the guy who froze up for almost 8 minutes at Eagle's Nest.

As a diver, you don't know what you don't know. As a technical instructor, you really don't know what you don't know. And it's only through experience with some IT oversight that you get that. These rubber stamp/pencil whipped certs need to stop.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Jim Wyatt used to tell me stories about NSS-CDS where the wife of a prominent figure couldn't (I'm going by memory) preform a mask clear, but still got green lit during the examination for becoming a cave instructor..

I do not remember that. I do recall the wife of a cave instructor who we summarily failed as a cave instructor candidate because she could not install a reel in Devil's Ear.

 

[Superlyte27]

How long after she was failed did she become an instructor? I know you weren't responsible for the class that ultimately passed her.

---------- Post added March 17th, 2015 at 08:50 PM ----------

Haha, I just checked my notes.... Too funny, and kinda backs up your stance Jim.

NSSCDS rejected her. She went to TDI and passed. HAHA....
Today, she's an IT with TDI. I wonder if she can put in a reel now. I would love to audit her teaching a cave class. I've already seen her husband teach. If she's as bad as him, yikes!

 

[The Chairman]

NSSCDS rejected her. She went to TDI and passed. HAHA...

It's a small, small world. We're still talking about the same person here.

 

[Superlyte27]

I don't know who Jim was referring to in his original post here. The lady I'm referring to has been active for more than 5 years. The story I referred two is over 4 years old.

My point mainly was to show that this isn't a new problem. Just a more common problem. Pete, I agree with you that no one goes into teaching cave diving for the money. The problem as I see it is, they get desperate for money for whatever reason, and have to do whatever it takes to survive, including teaching a bad class. Or they just find themselves not caring.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I don't know who Jim was referring to in his original post here. The lady I'm referring to has been active for more than 5 years. The story I referred two is over 4 years old.

Same story...same lady. We have discussed it at length ....

 

[karstdvr]

Jon Kieren
Training and Mebership Services
TDI/SDI/ERDI
www.tdisdi.com

Jon, this petty and trivial, and greatly appreciate your representation for TDI,but I don't think you are in charge of mebership services. Sorry, not trying to pile on, just if you are going to have a title for an agency I am sure you want to get it right.

 

[kensuf]

I have not personally investigated the story. The instructor sponsor for the CDS told me the story. I believe him.

Hmm, scary.

FYI, it took me a year to cross over from NAUI to TDI at the full cave instructor level. I had to:

1. Teach 3 TDI cavern courses
2. Intern with at least one intro course taught by a TDI instructor
3. Complete a TDI intro to cave IE.
4. Teach 3 TDI intro courses.
5. Intern with at least one complete full cave course taught by a TDI instructor, and receive a written recommendation to proceed onto the IE from that instructor.
6. Complete a full cave IE. The IT was not allowed to be the same instructor that recommended me to go on to the IE.

Pre-reqs to begin the process were full cave certified diver with 100 non-training cave dives (for cavern instructor), 150 non-training cave dives (for intro instructor), and 200 non-training cave dives (for full cave instructor), plus of course OW scuba instructor having taught a number of courses. I believe I had around 800 non-training cave dives when I started the process, but I stopped keeping a logbook back in 1998.

Now.. I've done quite a few more internships than was required for the minimum, and I guess it is possible to have progressed faster than a year. I believe I've now worked with a dozen different cave instructors with courses for all levels. But, I don't see how someone could have become a full cave instructor from nothing in the course of a weekend with TDI.