The Ethics of Promoting Cave Diving

[RJP]

But actively recruiting people to take up the sport of cave diving in order to sell your wares is against their code of ethics.

I tend to agree with that principle. Due to the risks, cave diving is not something that should be actively marketed and sold.

I think that the view that people should actively promote, market, and sell cave diver training has caused a big part of the problem that the cave diving community is now facing. In my humble opinion, the idea of actively promoting the sport of cave diving is simple hubris, detrimental to the caves and the activity, and completely short sighted.

As someone who has spent the past 25+ years in the advertising/marketing business I can assure you that all of the websites listed below are "actively promoting cave diving" whatever that means. There's no such thing as "active" promotion. You are either promoting something... or you're not. If you have a website "selling your wares" you are actively promoting cave diving.

Take your own website for example. www.divegainesville.org, contains nearly 1,000 words (989 to be precise) describing your cave training philosophy, experience, course offerings, etc. In fact, the section entitled "Technical Training" begins with the following promotional ad copy...

"Do you have deep dark thoughts? Do you wish to explore greater depths, or underground caverns and caves? We also offer technical training and cavern/cave training."

I'm assuming you "actively" wrote that copy, "actively" put it on your website, "actively" renew your domain, etc. You've even "actively" listed your website in your SB signature where even the newest of newbs might see it. Fair to assume that you listed your website there to promote your training services (ie "sell your wares") specifically including cave training?

I'm not pointing this out to beat you up, largely because - as a NACD-trained diver - I don't see anything wrong with it. A quick google search reveals that every cave agency, cave shop, cave facility, and nearly every cave instructor has a website... includin the NACD. Interestingly, they no longer use the safecavediving.org URL and now use nacdmembers.org. Hopefully that was not a calculated dodge to say "we're not 'promoting' cave diving... it's a 'members' website" since it's not behind a registration/sign-in page. Though do note that their twitter handle is @SafeCaveDiving.

http://www.nacdmembers.com/

https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Association-for-Cave-Diving/410779455643675

https://twitter.com/safecavediving

Dive Gainesville | There is a better way to dive!

http://www.nsscds.org/

http://cavediving.com/nfl_cave/training/index.htm

http://www.cavediveflorida.com/

http://www.naui.org/Technical_divers.aspx#010

http://www.ginniespringsoutdoors.com/learncave.php

http://www.dayo.com/

http://www.rheasdiving.com/Overheadtraining.html

http://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/get-certified/full-cave-diver/

http://www.diveoutpost.com/

http://www.dir-mexico.com/

http://www.cavedivertraining.com/

http://www.divecenotesmexico.com/cave-diver

http://www.underwaterdynamics.com/

http://superiordivetraining.com/

I won't go on and on...

Clearly trolling quarries and inlets and and other OW divesites and press-ganging hapless OW divers into Cave I classes is a bad idea. But I'm not sure that "actively promoting" cave diving is the same thing.

---------- Post added March 17th, 2015 at 08:52 AM ----------

When we get the bargain shoppers as students and they find the lowest bidder instructor then we have a problem.

Jim - anyone who's read more than a handful of my posts on SB knows that I'm all about helping the entire industry charge ridiculously high prices, and am not a fan of the the "race to the bottom" pricing model that is killing the dive industry in general. Of course the ubiquitous availability of $99 OW courses being run by OW instructors with very little experience themselves is an issue in recreational scuba.

However, I'm interested to know where the "lowest bidder" cave instructors came from? Did they get their cave instructor certifications from a mail-order company? Assuming that's not the case, and that they hold instructor ratings from a respected cave training agency and are therefor qualified and capable of delivering effective cave training... where's the problem? If they are NOT proving effective instruction... that's not a PRICING issue. What issue is THAT, and how is that best addressed?

Ray

 

[The Chairman]

I doubt Ben is in Vortex.

Does it really matter? You can see how he viewed himself by the opinions of his family and his actions.

Let's talk about the father and son in Eagles Nest.

Is that truly representative of many cave diving deaths? Even then, I think that people look up to a number of cave instructors and since HOW they got there is so shrouded in secrecy and apocrypha, they actually believe that they learned everything in the School of Hard Knocks and not by being certified. If they can do it and are so successful and well regarded, then they reason: 'Why not me?' I remember hearing one instructor opine about his certification process, telling his enraptured OW students how hard it was for him, what with instructors trying to dissuade him from continuing his training to some outright telling him to stop. He's simply horrible as an instructor too, and I've seen him pass students who couldn't demonstrate basic line techniques or do a proper frog kick. He thinks of himself as being a conscientious instructor too and a number of OW students bought into his tripe of him being some sort of uber instructor because he wouldn't give up. It's the allure of the forbidden fruit. Ask God how that worked for him and keep in mind that apples are now among our most popular fruits!

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

However, I'm interested to know where the "lowest bidder" cave instructors came from? Did they get their cave instructor certifications from a mail-order company? Assuming that's not the case, and that they hold instructor ratings from a respected cave training agency and are therefor qualified and capable of delivering effective cave training... where's the problem? If they are NOT proving effective instruction... that's not a PRICING issue. What issue is THAT, and how is that best addressed?

Ray

I have typed about this very issue before, on here I think. However let me relay you a story that should help you know where they are coming from.

Some background needs to be discussed first.

The NSS-CDS instructor pipeline requires aspiring cave instructors to get an instructor 'sponsor". Below is a copy/paste from NSS-CDS Standards regarding Instructor Sponsors:

4.9 Instructor Sponsor
This denotes an Active Status Cave Diver Instructor who has taken a special interest in the development of future NSS-CDS instructors. The Instructor Sponsor’s primary responsibility includes the indoctrination of Instructor Interns with NSS-CDS policies and philosophy on cave and cavern diving. In addition, the Instructor Sponsor aids in the reinstatement of non-active status instructors to Active Status.
A. To obtain Instructor Sponsor Status, the instructor shall:
1. Be an NSS-CDS Cave Diver Instructor for a minimum of one (1) year prior to participating in the program.
2. Complete and submit an NSS-CDS Specialty Instructor Application. (List Sponsor in the blank marked Other.)
3. Approval by the Training Committee.
4. Shall complete to the satisfaction of the Training Committee Chairman or his/her appointed representative, a sponsor orientation session with the Training Committee Chairman or his/her appointed representative.
5. Have trained at least four (4) NSS-CDS students within the prior twelve (12) months.
6. Participate in one (2) Instructor Institute as assisting staff/observer.
7. To the satisfaction of the Training Committee Chairman or his/her appointed representative Complete a sponsor training program that includes screening and evaluation of Instructor candidates while displaying the proper attitude, knowledge and skills of a NSS-CDS Instructor Sponsor.

B. To maintain Instructor Sponsor Status, the sponsor shall:
1. Maintain Active Status. If inactive for more than one (1) year, then at least one (1) year must pass after reinstatement to Active Status before he/she is eligible for Sponsor participation again.
2. Participate in at least one (1) instructor institute every three (3) years or attend a Sponsor Workshop conducted by the Training Chairman or anyone appointed by the Training Chairman with in the last year or have sponsored at less One (1) Instructor Intern who completed the program and was upgrade to “Instructor” in the past 24 months.
3. Have trained at least four (4) NSS-CDS students within the past twelve (12) months or have staffed a instructor institute that year.
4. Sponsors having two (2) Instructor Interns fail, or having three (3) Instructor Interns placed on provisional status as candidates at an Instructor Institute, may be dismissed from the Sponsor program.


In order to become an NSS-CDS cavern instructor you must become an intern after a sponsor has agreed to "sponsor" you.
Copied below are the requirements of that intern.

4.10 Cavern Diver Instructor Intern: Program Requirements and Description
4.10.1 Purpose
Development of a trained Cavern Diver Instructor requires hands-on internship under the guidance of a seasoned Cave Diver Instructor. The Cavern Diver Instructor Intern program is designed to allow the certified Open Water Instructor to gain experience in the overhead environment by working hand-in-hand with a Cave Diver Instructor who is well-versed at developing the required level of experience.
4.10.2 4.8.2 Training Duration
Training is highly individualistic. The amount of time invested by both the Instructor Intern and the Instructor Sponsor is normally dependent on the Intern’s background and motivation. The Intern shall observe and co-teach at least three (3) NSS-CDS Cavern courses with a minimum of three (3) NSS-CDS Cave Diver Instructors, of which one shall be the Intern’s sponsor, before attending the Cavern Diver Instructor Evaluation Institute.
4.10.3 Instructor Intern Background
To enter the Cavern Diver Instructor Intern program, a person shall:
A. Provide proof to the Training Committee Chairman that he/she is an Active Status Open Water Instructor as defined by one of the nationally/internationally recognized scuba training agencies. The applicant shall also have been an active status instructor for at least one (1) year and provide proof of having trained at least forty (40) divers to open water-related levels.

B. Be trained to at least the NSS-CDS Cave Diver level of training for at least one (1) year.
C. Provide proof of having completed at least one hundred (100) non-training related cave dives.
D. Provide proof current membership in the NSS and the NSS -CDS prior to entering the program.

Sometime in the past year or so a guy approached one of our sponsors and stated he wanted to be an NSS-CDS instructor. When the sponsor agreed he showed the guy the above requirements.

Three weeks later the guy contacted the sponsor and said he did not need it. That he had spent a weekend or two with a TDI IT and was now a CAVE instructor.

Hopefully this answers your question.

 

[The Chairman]

Sometime in the past year or so a guy approached one of our sponsors and stated he wanted to be an NSS-CDS instructor. When the sponsor agreed he showed the guy the above requirements.

Three weeks later the guy contacted the sponsor and said he did not need it. That he had spent a weekend or two with a TDI IT and was now a CAVE instructor.

Jim, I find this hard to believe. One or two weekends? Have you verified this story? We've got to be missing something.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I have not personally investigated the story. The instructor sponsor for the CDS told me the story. I believe him.

 

[kierentec]

I have not personally investigated the story. The instructor sponsor for the CDS told me the story. I believe him.

And hear lies the problem with hearsay. I am not going to battle over this one here, but I feel it is important to point out this issue since TDI was mentioned specifically.
Jim just posted here that this incident was a "year or so ago", in another thread he stated "A few months ago..." (same situation). Was it a year ago, a few months, or more like two years ago? Did the CDS instructor in question misquote the timeline as well? Was it 3 weeks later that they talked to the instructor candidate or three months? Did he spend "a weekend or two" or "one or two weeks" or was it "months" working with the IT? Did Jim provide any details to TDI when asked to provide them so they could investigate?

These things can quickly get blown out of proportion when the facts are skewed slightly (ever play the game telephone in grade school?) and training agencies (TDI in particular in this case) can really only action issues that are put in writing and documented so the issue can be investigated thoroughly.

 

[The Chairman]

And hear lies the problem with hearsay.

I see what you did there!

Not to nit pick too much, but "a few months ago" fits nicely into "within the last year or so". Does it sound too awful to be true? It did to me, but then so does allowing a student pass a cave class who does not tie into the main line correctly and could not do a frog kick. In a conversation with Jim after his post, it turns out that it's the very same guy who passed off this instructor. Now it's not so unbelievable to me.

 

[karstdvr]

And hear lies the problem with hearsay. I am not going to battle over this one here, but I feel it is important to point out this issue since TDI was mentioned specifically.
Jim just posted here that this incident was a "year or so ago", in another thread he stated "A few months ago..." (same situation). Was it a year ago, a few months, or more like two years ago? Did the CDS instructor in question misquote the timeline as well? Was it 3 weeks later that they talked to the instructor candidate or three months? Did he spend "a weekend or two" or "one or two weeks" or was it "months" working with the IT? Did Jim provide any details to TDI when asked to provide them so they could investigate?

These things can quickly get blown out of proportion when the facts are skewed slightly (ever play the game telephone in grade school?) and training agencies (TDI in particular in this case) can really only action issues that are put in writing and documented so the issue can be investigated thoroughly.

What Jim points out is the truth. This person wanted to be a fast tracked cave instructor and found someone to do it. We are thankful that this person had professional commitments such that they could not actively teach, and most think he just wanted this feather in his cap to say, "I am a cave diving instructor".

But why find this so hard to believe. Skip over to the Sidemount forum to read discussions of someone buying gear and get blessed by a course director one weekend, and teaching this course to students the next weekend.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

And hear lies the problem with hearsay. I am not going to battle over this one here, but I feel it is important to point out this issue since TDI was mentioned specifically.
Jim just posted here that this incident was a "year or so ago", in another thread he stated "A few months ago..." (same situation). Was it a year ago, a few months, or more like two years ago? Did the CDS instructor in question misquote the timeline as well? Was it 3 weeks later that they talked to the instructor candidate or three months? Did he spend "a weekend or two" or "one or two weeks" or was it "months" working with the IT? Did Jim provide any details to TDI when asked to provide them so they could investigate?

These things can quickly get blown out of proportion when the facts are skewed slightly (ever play the game telephone in grade school?) and training agencies (TDI in particular in this case) can really only action issues that are put in writing and documented so the issue can be investigated thoroughly.

There is no battle here John. A few months ago could be 6 or 8 or 12. It was not a few years ago. The CDS instructor reported this to me within a few days after the new TDI Cave instructor contacted him stating he no longer needed an internship.

The new instructor spent a weekend or two with the IT. It was not one or two weeks, nor was it "months". It was one or two weekends.

I have brought training concerns to TDI in the past and I felt the concerns were treated as "no concern" from TDI management.

Own it John. In my opinion and in my experience watching -- TDI Cave instructor certs can be purchased.

 

[kierentec]

There is no battle here John. A few months ago could be 6 or 8 or 12. It was not a few years ago. The CDS instructor reported this to me within a few days after the new TDI Cave instructor contacted him stating he no longer needed an internship......

I have brought training concerns to TDI in the past and I felt the concerns were treated as "no concern" from TDI management. ....
.

Ok, last post on this specific incident. Jim, you did in fact bring this issue to TDI in June of 2013. At which point you were notified that the hypothetical (because no names, dates, or any specific facts were given) issue would certainly constitute a violation of TDI standards and you were requested TWICE to provide details (which were never provided) so the matter could be investigate. The issue did spark some productive discussion and a clarification in the Full Cave Instructor standards, which are now publicly available on the TDI website https://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/get-certified/Full-Cave-Instructor/

You thanked TDI for the response and candid answers to the issue.

If anyone has any concerns about this specific incident, please feel free to contact me directly.


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