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The Ethics of Promoting Cave Diving

Discussion in 'Cave Diving' started by kensuf, Mar 15, 2015.

  1. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Wow! So the card she has is a figment of her imagination!

    In this History of NAUI, author Al Tillman, NAUI founder and instructor #1, says that NAUI has in the past been plagued by problems resulting in its policy of sending cards to instructors based on the list of students registering for a course. The reason was that instructors like to hand students their cards as they completed the course. The problem was that they knew that in many cases, students got those cards without geting any instruction whatsoever. Are you calling Al Tillman a liar?
     
    Capt Jim Wyatt likes this.
  2. daniel f aleman

    daniel f aleman Loggerhead Turtle

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    Tell you what John, I'll call NAUI and talk to them about this thread, and look into your claim.
     
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  3. PfcAJ

    PfcAJ Orca

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    It's your word against his right now, and he's a little closer to the situation than you are...
     
    Omisson likes this.
  4. daniel f aleman

    daniel f aleman Loggerhead Turtle

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    I've been with NAUI since 1972; I work out of a NAUI shop. Like I stated, I'll make a phone call... John's got me interested...
     
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  5. cerich

    cerich ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Hmmm, I have been following the thread and I am on the NAUI Board of Directors.

    If it happened the instructor violated standards and any NAUI Leader that was a witness who did NOT report it to NAUI also violated standards. In the NAUI credo the following is there "Every member has an obligation to report violations of NAUI’s Standards and Policies and/or Code of Ethics."

    However, let's be honest here, just because something is against standards doesn't mean it never happened. Saying it never happened to somebody that says it did..I understand asking for proof but...

    I REALLY hope it isn't true, if it is...I REALLY hope somebody reports it and the review process can begin.

    ---------- Post added March 19th, 2015 at 12:49 AM ----------

    NAUI is not the only agency you can pre register a student for and hand the card upon completion. Could a card get stolen by somebody who didn't finish? Sure, I don't believe however that NAUI Instructors are handing out cards prior to finishing the class.

     
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  6. The Chairman

    The Chairman Chairman of the Board

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Cave Country!
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    There should be a statute of limitations for these things. I don't think John was present (not an eye witness) and I don't think he was an instructor at the time. If someone was to report it, it should have been his daughter, but that's a hard thing to get them to do. I've heard about standards violations from a number of students who had various instructors from various agencies. Often I request that they report those violations to the respective agencies and for a few of the more egregious cases, I even plead with them to do it. I even offer to assist them. As best I can tell, not one student has done so. Not one. Is it out of loyalty or compassion? I think it's that they don't want to be involved with the instructor anymore: not even to report them. The incident is behind them and they want to keep it that way. I might know about the incident, but unless I am a first hand witness, then the agencies don't want to hear from me. I actually like that policy, but it has it's drawbacks. One time I was a first hand witness. I watched an instructor with his class in Blue Spring, where you're not allowed to have lights unless you're a certified cave diver with a certified cave diver buddy. On the second dive, I watched the instructor go to each of his students and 'bless' them. This is the signal that they passed their certification and are now certified divers, able to go deeper than 60 ft. He and his dive master then produced lights and took the six students past the grim reaper sign on a tour deep into the cave. I called one of the reps for the agencies he worked for to report him. He dissuaded me from following through with it. First he told me that I had seen it wrong. When I insisted that I hadn't, he pointed out that the instructor might have been teaching for one of the other agencies at the time, so he couldn't do anything about it anyways. He then confided in me that he's glad that he's teaching more for the other agencies as he's embarrassed that he was an instructor for HIS agency. He also pointed out that I would have to have the students' names as well as the dive master's in order to go forward with it. Oh well, so much for that. I got the distinct impression that he saw me as a bigger problem than the offending instructor. FWIW, he was a NAUI rep.

    Let' face it. It's easier to demonize the complainer rather than to accept that there is a problem and a systemic problem at that. We can cast aspersions about our detractors but that doesn't change the facts or fix the problem. The truth will set you free, but only if you embrace it and the discomfort or pain it brings. Excuses, caveats and outright denials are easier for most than to actually deal with the reality of the situation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
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  7. karstdvr

    karstdvr Solo Diver

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    So true. To ignore the wide spread problems that are being reported across the industry is like ignoring chest pains, they are there,and we can try to rationalize them away,but the problem is still there.
     
  8. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Location: Boulder, CO
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    OK. let's get the facts in what I said straight. It was my niece, not my daughter, and I did not witness it. This past autumn, who does not normally live remotely close to me, was in the area doing an internship. One day she mentioned that she was a certified diver, and I suggested we go for a dive. She told me the story of her certification and said she felt she really had no idea about how to dive. Her "certification" happened years ago, while she was in the Air Force, stationed in Okinawa. That is the extent of my knowledge of it.

    Interestingly enough, about a month after that, I joined some former neighbors in a family gathering. Their daughter was in town, and she reported a similar thing--she had gotten NAUI certified in Taiwan years ago with clearly substandard instruction.

    My point was not to pick on NAUI. I imagine it happens in just about every agency. I myself was originally certified by PADI in a course that clearly skipped a bunch of standards, and I have written about it many times.
     
  9. Redshift

    Redshift DIR Practitioner

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    I think many divers may not want to go into the trouble of reporting because a) They are afraid they get their certifications taken away b) It could be beneficial for future students if those instructors lost their teaching status, but it doesn't benefit them.
    IT would be nice if agencies publicly encouraged reporting and offered the necessary extra teaching, if needed, to get the divers up to the required standard and no certification would be taken away.
     
  10. TSandM

    TSandM Missed and loved by many. Rest in Peace ScubaBoard Supporter

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    This discussion has certainly gone off the rails . . . from a discussion of whether it is ethical to advertise and promote cave diving in an effort to make a living teaching it, to a discussion of standards violations in open water classes.
     

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