The changing Scuba Industry

[diver0008]

You and I do. Seems that most folks our age have this restriction on fun called "jobs", so when they want to go diving they take "vacation". They get expectations all worked up in their heads of what the "vacation" is supposed to be. and if the vacation doesn't live up to the expectations, they are disappointed.

Now, you and I can go dive the sand and be very happy with the garden eels and the snake eels and the crabs and the......, but if you go to the Dry Tortugas and don't see a turtle, or you go to the Sea of Cortez and don't see a gray whale, well, some folks didn't get their money's worth.

This is veering into deeper water.

 

[stuartv]

Apparently you guys aren't comprehending so if you can't understand the concept from this post, it will be my last post on the subject.

If the shop is selling a pair of DiveRite XT's with a price tag of $145 JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, but a google search reveals XYZ dive shop on the other side of the country has them on sale for $125 and they willingly match that price, how in the world are they screwing their customers?

I had already answered this, but I'll try again, using your example.

LDS sells DR XT's for $145. DRiS sells them for $125.

When LDS price matches DRiS for a customer, they are taking a sale away from DRiS. If they do that enough, DRiS will go out of business. Once that happens, there are no more DR XT's for anyone at $125. That screws all the customers.

If we want to continue to be able to buy DR XT's at $125, we need to buy them from the place that offers them at $125.

In addition, if Joe walks into the LDS and buys DR XT's at $145 and then I walk in 5 minutes later and buy DR XT's, but they sell them to me for $125 (whether it's to match DRiS or if it's just because they know me and they like me), then they have just screwed Joe. Basically, they've said (by virtue of their actions), "we'll sell these DR XT's for $125. But, if you blindly trust us to give you the best deal we can, then we're going to sell them to you for $145 instead." Tomorrow, Joe and I meet at the pool for our training class and we're comparing our shiny new regs and I mention the great deal I got at $125 and now not only is Joe screwed, but he knows he got screwed. That is not good for Joe or for the LDS. How do you expect an LDS to build up a loyal following of active divers when they keep having customers end up feeling like they get screwed by the shop if they just trust the shop instead of doing a bunch of Internet research on prices before they buy anything?

I didn't really "get it" when the owner of one of my LDS's told me that he doesn't do price matching or any kind of discounting. He said that if he gave me a discount because I'm his buddy and then sells the same thing to the next customer for MSRP, that makes HIM an a-hole. I couldn't see how he would ever stay in business selling everything at full MSRP. It turns out that he is doing really, really well. One of the reasons is because his customers trust him and so they are loyal to him. One of the reasons they trust him is that they know if he says "the price is $145" that he's not going to turn around and sell the same thing to someone else for $125. They know they can get it cheaper online. They know that buying from him means a level of service that can't get from an online retailer.

The people that pay more to buy from him are doing so because they have a relationship with him that includes loyalty and trust. And that trust would be broken if he told them "the price is $145" and then he sold the same thing to someone else for $125. If that happened, they would know that when he says "the price is $XXX", he is, essentially, lying.

That specific type of lie is what those price-matching LDS's are doing that is screwing their customers.

 

[Wookie]

I had already answered this, but I'll try again, using your example.

LDS sells DR XT's for $145. DRiS sells them for $125.

When LDS price matches DRiS for a customer, they are taking a sale away from DRiS. If they do that enough, DRiS will go out of business. Once that happens, there are no more DR XT's for anyone at $125. That screws all the customers.

If we want to continue to be able to buy DR XT's at $125, we need to buy them from the place that offers them at $125.

In addition, if Joe walks into the LDS and buys DR XT's at $145 and then I walk in 5 minutes later and buy DR XT's, but they sell them to me for $125 (whether it's to match DRiS or if it's just because they know me and they like me), then they have just screwed Joe. Basically, they've said (by virtue of their actions), "we'll sell these DR XT's for $125. But, if you blindly trust us to give you the best deal we can, then we're going to sell them to you for $145 instead." Tomorrow, Joe and I meet at the pool for our training class and we're comparing our shiny new regs and I mention the great deal I got at $125 and now not only is Joe screwed, but he knows he got screwed. That is not good for Joe or for the LDS. How do you expect an LDS to build up a loyal following of active divers when they keep having customers end up feeling like they get screwed by the shop if they just trust the shop instead of doing a bunch of Internet research on prices before they buy anything?

I didn't really "get it" when the owner of one of my LDS's told me that he doesn't do price matching or any kind of discounting. He said that if he gave me a discount because I'm his buddy and then sells the same thing to the next customer for MSRP, that makes HIM an a-hole. I couldn't see how he would ever stay in business selling everything at full MSRP. It turns out that he is doing really, really well. One of the reasons is because his customers trust him and so they are loyal to him. One of the reasons they trust him is that they know if he says "the price is $145" that he's not going to turn around and sell the same thing to someone else for $125. They know they can get it cheaper online. They know that buying from him means a level of service that can't get from an online retailer.

The people that pay more to buy from him are doing so because they have a relationship with him that includes loyalty and trust. And that trust would be broken if he told them "the price is $145" and then he sold the same thing to someone else for $125. If that happened, they would know that when he says "the price is $XXX", he is, essentially, lying.

That specific type of lie is what those price-matching LDS's are doing that is screwing their customers.

And THIS is why we never discounted. The one time the owner prior to me did, the divers got together on the back deck and compared pricing. Half got back to the dock and demanded a partial refund. Plus, it is my firm belief that it devalues the product. If I sell it for $995, but you can go to a dive shop and get it for 20% less (if they forego their commission), than the trip is really only worth (whatever $995-20% is). If it's only worth ($995-20%) this day, what makes it worth $995 the next day? We've taught our diving public that the product is only worth (whatever the discount rate is), and that if they pay more, than they are getting ripped off.

It's one thing to buy in bulk and pass the savings along to the customer. That's called a sale and no one gets their butt hurt for a sale. Routinely discounting (every other liveaboard operator and I disagree with this theory) trains people to wait for the discount, and if you teach your customer to be cheap, they certainly will be, and they will think you are ripping them off.

When I buy tires, I go into my tire store, tell them what I want, and buy them. If they are on sale, that's cool. If my tire store treats me great, and doesn't discount, but maybe extends the road hazard warranty, I am happy as a clam. But I don't dicker, I find it rude. I would no more go into a dive shop and (needing a pair of fins they have in stock) ask for them to price match than I would go to the grocery store, and when I'm all checked out, offer the clerk 90% of what the register total is.

 

[The Chairman]

The people that pay more to buy from him are doing so because they have a relationship with him that includes loyalty and trust.

Not everyone buys the same way you do nor do they want to. Go to Mexico and if you don't haggle, you're seen as just a stupid Gringo. Many shops I have been in, Dive and otherwise, have a sign indicating that they will match prices. Even if they don't, what's going to prevent you from asking? When I bought my van, I steered away from the dealers who claimed "no haggle". Screw that. I want to negotiate. You don't? Then you get to spend more and it's no one's fault but your own. Don't blame the shop for doing business in a way that most of their customers appreciate.

 

[Patoux01]

Screw that. I want to negotiate. You don't? Then you get to spend more and it's no one's fault but your own. Don't blame the shop for doing business in a way that most of their customers appreciate.

I don't... But I'd be happy if that kind of stuff could stay on your side of the world, much like tipping.

 

[Wookie]

Not everyone buys the same way you do nor do they want to. Go to Mexico and if you don't haggle, you're seen as just a stupid Gringo. Many shops I have been in, Dive and otherwise, have a sign indicating that they will match prices. Even if they don't, what's going to prevent you from asking? When I bought my van, I steered away from the dealers who claimed "no haggle". Screw that. I want to negotiate. You don't? Then you get to spend more and it's no one's fault but your own. Don't blame the shop for doing business in a way that most of their customers appreciate.

You like the challenge of it. I find it embarrassing.

 

[stuartv]

Not everyone buys the same way you do nor do they want to. Go to Mexico and if you don't haggle, you're seen as just a stupid Gringo. Many shops I have been in, Dive and otherwise, have a sign indicating that they will match prices. Even if they don't, what's going to prevent you from asking? When I bought my van, I steered away from the dealers who claimed "no haggle". Screw that. I want to negotiate. You don't? Then you get to spend more and it's no one's fault but your own. Don't blame the shop for doing business in a way that most of their customers appreciate.

I was talking about that one shop and they way they operate.

Me? I am down to haggle on everything! But, I totally respect the LDS I'm talking about for the way they do things. And I think they and their customers are better off for their policy. Needless to say, I don't even attempt to haggle with them.

To me, the ideal shop would offer everything at the lowest price that they could and still have a sustainable business. And then sell with no price matching and no discounts. I feel like DRiS and DGX are examples of this. Oh, and The Unicorn Shop would also be super friendly, zero pressure sales, and have an area where customers can just come in, hang out, and drink a beer. With an occasional weekend barbecue out back. That pretty much describes my one LDS except for the part where they sell everything at full MSRP. Maybe that really is the lowest they can go and be sustainable. I'm a little skeptical of that, but I don't complain. And they don't bat an eye when I bring in regs for service that I bought from DGX....

 

[CuzzA]

Comparing the sale of say fins and a charter is quite different.

Again, I brought the concept up as one way a LDS can remain competitive against the online warehouse retailers.

I like to negotiate. I know that because of my willingness to negotiate I've saved thousands of dollars over the years.

 

[The Chairman]

You like the challenge of it. I find it embarrassing.

Then don't do it. When the benefits outweigh your reticence, you just might try it. There are a few shops where I wouldn't even try. I either pay their price (I usually do) or I go somewhere else. I've had shops here in the Keys complain about me not diving with them and posting about them. When I bring them divers and they still want to charge me, I go to one of the many shops here who won't do that. No, I won't haggle with them, I just vote with my fins. I won't say anything bad about them, but then I'm can't say anything good about them and I won't be sending people their way either. It's even more embarrassing when people coming down here to see Elena and me find out that we won't dive with this or that dive op and if they want to dive with us, they'll have to pick another shop.

To me, the ideal shop would offer

Not me. I want a shop that rewards the customer for their knowledge and for posting about them on SB.

I know that because of my willingness to negotiate I've saved thousands of dollars over the years.

Saving money is nice, but my negotiations usually are about where I'm going to go and how I'm going to get there.

 

[Wookie]

ITo me, the ideal shop would offer everything at the lowest price that they could and still have a sustainable business. And then sell with no price matching and no discounts. I feel like DRiS and DGX are examples of this. Oh, and The Unicorn Shop would also be super friendly, zero pressure sales, and have an area where customers can just come in, hang out, and drink a beer. With an occasional weekend barbecue out back. That pretty much describes my one LDS except for the part where they sell everything at full MSRP. Maybe that really is the lowest they can go and be sustainable. I'm a little skeptical of that, but I don't complain. And they don't bat an eye when I bring in regs for service that I bought from DGX....

This....