The changing Scuba Industry

[Antmany2k]

You are generalizing and exaggerating.

This is not effective.

it is an exaggeration but i do see it to an extent in my job. but my example was at the extreme end of the scale. but it is also a generalization and exaggeration to say millennials care only about themselves and cheap thrills when in fact that is not wholly true either. it is far more complex than that and depends on the individual, their available income, their work status, area they live and many other factors.

 

[Aanderson81]

I will be honest, I only read the first page or so at this point. But here are my takes.

I am younger, but not what I would consider a millennial at 35. I just got certified after doing a few resort dives over a couple of years I decided to go all in. I own all my equipment. I buy both online and from my LDS. In all honesty I have a love hate relationship with my LDS.

I think there are a few issues with the shift in the industry. Yes I expect that the demographics are aging.

I dont know if the pricing of equipment and training has gone up, down or stayed the same over the years, but there is a decent barrier to entry and this will keep younger divers out. When I got into diving I had to be smart about how I spend my money to keep this cost down. This included finding an instructor in Mexico which was a significantly better value than doing the course locally. I did my AOW and Nitrox locally and to be honest I dont regret my choice to do my BOW in Mexico. There are good and bad instructors everywhere. I wouldnt say I got a bad instructor locally, but the focus was on checking the boxes and giving you the cert you paid for locally. On top of that the fact that PADI charged me 2 card fees when I did my AOW and Nitrox literally at the same time really cemented the feeling that the certification was more about a revenue stream than anything else. Dont get me started on what they charge to convert to an eCert. Also I feel that the equipment prices are high for what they are. Take dive computers these days. the MSRP is quite high in all honesty for what technology really is inside these units. I understand this is likely due to the low volumes of sales and the number of people who need to keep the lights on off the back of the sale of the item. I understand the reason for all this, but as a consumer its off-putting.

Secondly is a shift in the consumer. Incomes are dropping for the middle class and this means your pool of customers is shrinking as well. Not to get too deep into politics but this is going to be a problem that gets worse before it gets better. I have several friends that would love to get into diving with me, however they just cant budget for the initial expense for training on something that would be a hobby.

As much as I hate to say this, the industry needs consolidation. There are just too many people trying to keep the lights on given the volume of sales. The LDS is a needed model for the industry. But in all honesty I expect the industry would be better served by larger "regional chains" that can keep their overhead lower through efficiency. This goes back to my love hate relationship with my LDS. I know they are needed, I know they need to make a buck to stay in business and i enjoy visiting when I drop the tanks off for a fill. But every time I go in there is the up-sell going on. I have a thread on this board looking for a dive reel to do a trip for a shark tooth dive. The LDS says that I need a $200 - $300 reel for the trip when in all honesty it sounds like I need a $70-$100 reel. I often go in first before I buy equipment but 70% of the time end up buying online because they just push the high dollar items too hard or just cant come anywhere near the price I need on an item. I understand paying a premium for buying local, but 50-100% more just cant be justified to my budget.

 

[stuartv]

i think my point is being missed or twisted. i am not saying life is meaningless, my life has meaning to me. and the cancer thing was probably a bad example. i am not completely self serving, i volunteer at a children's hospice near where i live and have done other volunteer work. i know that can impact other people in a positive way but the point is my name wont echo through the ages like Odysseus, Shakespeare, Homer or Marie Curie . one of the biggest impacts i think i could have on this earth is to have a child which id love to do but as i get older that becomes more unlikely. but regardless of how much i help others and how fulfilled it makes me feel or how much it helps others doesn't change the fact we are in the grand scheme rather insignificant

the point i was making is that i (and presumably other millennials) would rather experience the world rather than spend all our money on a fancy 5 bedroom house and gas guzzling new car every 6 months and then not be able to afford to do anything but stay in that massive house with 3 more rooms than you need or that 8 seater monstrosity for your 3 person family. it is sad to see how many people want to buy a new car every 6 months because their neighbor buys one every 12 months and they want to outdo them, its childish in a way.

if you had a choice of a having a fancy car and house but never leaving your neighbourhood or having a house that suited your needs and a car that got you from A to B but wasnt a head turner but you could travel the world or anywhere you wanted which would you choose?

i bought a modest 1 bed flat rather than a house so i could continue to dive - like i said its a balance. without going into detail i nearly wasn't here 18 months ago and diving is one of the things that keeps me here and quite frankly is the only time i ever really feel free and relaxed and so i wont give it up

You were exaggerating. I was exaggerating. Both to illustrate a point by taking it to the extreme.

You do volunteer work. That is great and I don't mean the following to belittle that in ANY way. But, does it cost you money to volunteer? I'm guessing no, or not much. Could you quit at any time? I'm guessing yes. It's great that you do it, but the point is that it doesn't represent a serious commitment. Not like having a baby or buying a house. It's (probably) not even in the same league of commitments as paying for a bunch of training and buying a complete set of scuba gear. And commitments are the difference between an attitude of "I'm going to be right here, doing the best I can" and an attitude of "I don't matter and I don't know how long I will even be here".

You don't have to take the "I'm never going to cure cancer, so I just won't do anything" attitude to that extreme to still have that attitude play a significant role in your life. I'm not trying to single you out. You sound like a good person with a good attitude and a good head on your shoulders. I'm just pondering the difference in basic values between Millennials and older generations. The basics of your original post were presented as somewhat representative of Millennials in general and that jibes with what I see - what I live with on a daily basis, as my girlfriend and I live together and she is definitely a Millennial and exhibits many of the same attitudes that you described.

So, again, I wonder if that core value of "I'm not going to do anything that will be remembered in 100 years, so I may as well just enjoy life's pleasures" (to whatever extreme any given individual takes it) is a defining characteristic of Millennials and is also a significant contributing factor to some aspects of the way the scuba industry is changing. It seems that your original post was saying that it is. I am feeling inclined to agree.

Older generations tend to seek stability in their jobs, their homes, and their romantic relationships. Older generations value durability and consistency. Older generations are the ones saying "my XYZ broke. They sure don't make them like they used to!"

Millennials seem to be more inclined to job hop, and move around the country or world, and less likely to get married, settle down, and crank out babies. Millennials seem to be much more accepting of disposability in their every day purchases. A new $600 phone every year doesn't even raise an eyebrow. Older generations cringe at the thought.

So, yeah, as you brought up, that all seems to tie into why there might be a trend in the industry for divers to be less likely to pursue advanced training and to buy all their own gear. To many, and especially among Millennials, the entire hobby of scuba is relatively disposable. Plunk down a few hundred bucks, get a C card, do a few cool dives, then send the whole subject to the mental landfill. Older generations seem MUCH less inclined to have that attitude. If we spend a few hundred bucks to get into a hobby, by golly, we're going to do it more than 2 or 3 times.

I think older generations have more of a sense of permanence. Millennials seem to have more of an attitude of perpetual transience.

[/rambling]

 

[packrat12]

Aanderson81 - I like a lot of what you said and it reminded me of a few things when people call diving expensive.

Best I can remember of my first gear in 1985 ish:
Regulator, Dacor Areo 350, at a really great price then - $115
Console, Dacor analog, - $125
Wetsuit - $90
Fins, USD Rocket - $35
Mask - $30
BC, No name cheap at the time - $190
Weights, hard lead - $1.00 per lb
Air fill - $1.00 - $2.00


When I bought my daughter her first gear in 2013:
Regulator, Mares in expensive sale - $125
Console, Analog on sale - $115
Wetsuit - $125
Fins - $100
Mask - $70
BC, Aqualung Zuma - $450 (Although cheaper bcds can be had for sub $300)
Weights, soft lead - $4.00 per lb
Air fill - $4.00

If you look at the average incomes from 1985 to 2013, I think you will find that I am still able to buy most gear near the cost of what I paid in 1985. The cost of gear today is actually cheaper for the most part then in 1985 dollars.

Now part of the 'economy of scale' issues come in to play. I have a Dive Rite side reel (red). I suspect that there is about $5.00 in metal, $2.00 or less in plastic and $2.00 in line in it for Dive Rite. Total material cost is probably less then $10.00 + some machining, paint and labor. I bought the reel for over $120.00. I assume at the low side, the LDS paid $60.00 for the reel from Dive Rite. This would appear to be quite a profit for both Dive Rite and the LDS. Until you consider that they probably make very few of those reels. Now the economy of scale comes into play and the overall cost is probably a lot closer to what the LDS pays. Then the LDS holds onto it for a very long time for the limited sale volume of it. So overall, no one is really making a killing on that reel! The LDS also needs to stock 10 other competing reels or I will not walk in to them in the first place....

I think the dive industry is in trouble not because of the quantity of divers but rather the overall enthusiasm of the diver. When I learned, it was a sizable investment in both money and time. You wanted to be there, you wanted to learn and you wanted to dive. I have posed this before but I bet the active participation rate was much higher in the beginning through the 1990's for the quantity of certified divers. Now the market has expanded beyond the LDS and the internet has given so many choices to boats and destinations, that the shops are competing for any scrap of business. After I learned, magazines or phone books were my way of booking dive sites and destinations. I would go to the public library and scour the phone books for WPB or Ft Lauderdale. The LDS was also important for finding and setting up this info if they had a trip I was interested in, which was rare. I also used Underwater Florida book through many editions. The internet has changed all of this. I really do not need my LDS for anything. Most of my training is through independent instructors or attached but approached due to reputation. Gas fills are often based on destination and, in my case, the availability of He. I have a local shop I like but rarely will find the specific gear I need from them, so they get an occasional gas fill at best. I have other shops I love and try to support but unless my diving takes me near them, I cannot use them as much as I would like to. Until I started using odd gas mixes, it was often easier for me to get my gas from the boat operator and my cheap gear at a big chain store on the way down. Now I know specific technical shops that I can support but again, not as much as I would like.

 

[dmaziuk]

@dmaziuk:
That signature line of yours is be-puzzling:
"Relativity, Uncertainty, Incompleteness, Undecidability: choose any four."
for I just can't decide...!

How about "(A)bort (R)etry (C)ancel (F)ail"? Too 1980's?

 

[Antmany2k]

but the point is that it doesn't represent a serious commitment. Not like having a baby or buying a house. It's (probably) not even in the same league of commitments as paying for a bunch of training and buying a complete set of scuba gear. And commitments are the difference between an attitude of "I'm going to be right here, doing the best I can" and an attitude of "I don't matter and I don't know how long I will even be here".

@stuartv that was a great post with some good points. i agree with what you say, buying a house or having a baby is a massive commitment and life changing. I bought a house ive been in the same company 9 years and lived in the same county all my life and id love to settle down but no woman will put up with me long enough to have a child lol but i have god children and id love to get them into scuba when they are older but i digress. cars and phones i keep as long as possible to save having to shell out money i don't need too. maybe i am not a typical millennial, maybe i am on the cusp of not being a millennial so i don't have the full mindset (born in 87) or maybe i got lucky or maybe i just have a different mindset instilled in me from my upbringing i honestly don't know.

on the scuba side of things i was (as i am with everything i do) cautious. to me (and this is my opinion and not a slight on anyone that has done it) buying a whole scuba set before doing open water or for open water seems risky and slightly reckless. what if you don't like it? what if you decide its not for you? i have seen posts where people say to check on ebay for equipment because some people buy all the gear then quit after OW. personally at the time i qualified i couldn't afford to do that and even if i could i would make sure i was in it for the long haul before buying equipment. i am fully invested in diving now and will dive as often as time, money or my health allows for as long as i can strap on a tank. but even knowing that i still don't have all the kit (i have most things that i built up over the last year and am researching heavily into regs and either a bc or backplate and wing) it can be off putting seeing how much getting into scuba costs especially if LDS are trying to flog you all the equipment before you start, it becomes overwhelming. i think its good practice to make sure you want to do it before you get fully geared up (something i also had to learn for photography (on land not underwater)

i think from a business point of view they would be better of getting people into diving through courses and not selling any equipment unless they want it. then as they get into it they will naturally want to get equipment. it doesn't do much for the LDS in the short term but in the long term it would benefit them i think. personally i am more likely to buy from someone who doesn't pressure me. also i liked one of the posts earlier that said about having a sofa/couch and a beer fridge and a social side of things. this site has made me feel part of a diving community it would be nice to have that at a LDS or club

 

[ljpm]

Although I am not a millennial, I am a new diver (about 3 years). Here are a few of my views of the industry.

1. The industry seems to be set up to extract as much money as possible from divers.
- There are so many Padi courses that are high on cost and low on content, content measured by checklists.
- Padi elearning, at least in my case, was a waste of money. I still had to pay and take the course (well sit and listen to the instructor talk about dives he has done) at my LDS. Why, after taking the course on line and passing the tests do I have to take another test with an LDS? It's padi's way of passing on a sucker, kind of like telemarketers pass on sucker lists.
- Manufacturers recommendations for servicing of equipment are WAY to conservative. Does a Regulator really need to be serviced every year?
- Manufacturers who provide 'free' parts for annual services is simply a way to funnel money into LDSs who do the service.
- Even the the name Padi is disingenuous. Padi is NOT a professional association of diving instructors. A professional association is typically a non-profit organization. Padi is a for profit corporation. This is something the Competitions Bureau is currently looking into.

2. Prices are all over the place.
- I currently priced a 40cf tank. Prices ranged from $189-$400 CDN. One LDS (a price $300) offers equivalent in fills so tank works out to being free.
- I purchased a couple used steel tanks last year. My LDS charged $150 each for Hydro, tumbling and vis. I find out recently that another LDS charges $40 for Hydro and vis.

3. Lack of willingness of LDS to pass on information.
- One of the main reasons I prefer shopping in person is so that I can obtain as much information as possible so that I may make an informed decision. My LDS's seem to want to withhold that info and decide for me what the best choice would be. Getting information from them is like pulling teeth sometimes.
- Often there are no prices of items on display in my LDS. I have to ask about every price. I have already learned which person to ask for the price since one person always has a higher price. (has happened multiple times)

4. Internet
- On-line retailers provide an easy way to compare prices as well as research information on equipment.


Overall, I have little to no trust in the industry. This is rather bad when you consider the inherent danger involved in diving.

Another annoyance is with service contracts. Why is it that my LDS can only service Aqua Lung and not Scuba Pro, and the opposite case for others.

 

[stuartv]

@Antmany2k - agreed on all points!

 

[JamesBon92007]

I feel compelled to throw in my 2 centavos worth...

My girlfriend (66-year-old baby boomer) is signed up for her OW course in May in Puerto Vallarta. Why PV? Because we wanted to go there anyway and they do have diving there.

Her take on the whole certification thing is this: she feels that after she completes the OW course she can't possibly know very much otherwise why would they have all of those other courses that she needs to take? Will she ever take any other courses? Probably not. The courses run somewhere around $500 each (US) and take up too much vacation time. She is confident that I will teach her whatever else she needs to know. She has not spent very much on equipment and probably won't. She bought a new mask and got a good deal on a wetsuit but most of the equipment she will be using is from my "inventory" of good-quality, well-maintained, reliable stuff.

What about me? In the past 48 years I have probably spent less than $1000 on dive equipment and that includes my compressor. I have gone beach diving thousands of times and numerous boat dives at Catalina (California). I feel that my biggest waste of money was on some AL 80s and I have gone back to using steel 72s. In the past few years I have spent thousands of dollars on dive vacations in tropical locations. As a result I am learning how to take dive vacations for less money. I am not currently doing much beach diving in Southern California but expect to be again soon. During my decades of beach diving I never felt the need to spend much money on diving after the initial expense of the basic stuff. I rarely even had to pay for air. My favorite LDS probably punched my Air Card about one time out of five, if that. They did sell me on the aluminum tanks but I think they sincerely thought they were an improvement. When regulators suddenly improved they shared their knowledge and experience with me and I appreciated it. Other than that they never really tried to sell me anything. I guess they made their money selling stuff to the people who always needed the latest gadget and there seems to be a lot of them.

 

[TMHeimer]

James, I'm almost 63. Have spent more that you in my 12 years, but not a whole lot. I'm similar to most of what you say.