Thank heavens for PADI

[Lawman]

lol...

trying to quell lawyer jokes is like King Canute commanding the tides to stop...

it ain't gonna happen! but thanks for trying, Lawman!

But can we at least try and tell BETTER Lawyer jokes???

 

[zboss]

True but but what we don't know is how many dives are being done.

This is true, but the capability to gather data has improved. However, we do -generally- have an idea of how many dive accidents occur every year. Every time there is even RUMOR that a dive accident has occured this board goes crazy.

I tend to think that the number of dives done each year is also staying pretty constant.

This will change if there is a new economic boom which doesn't result in people increasing the number of hours they are required to work.

Thousands and thousands of new divers are certified each year and if all these divers were out diving you'd need 100 new resorts every year, equipment sales would be through the roof and every shop would need a bigger compressor every couple of years.

Good Point

Not only has the business not grown recently but I've talked to a number of shop owners who said that last year was their worst in 30 years.

In what way? Sales, Service, or Certifications Granted? If it's certifications granted then we should be able to get that data directly from the certifying agencies. If it's sales then don't tell that to LeisurePro or DiveBooty. If servicing of equipment is down it's very possible this reflects how much diving is occuring.

One thing that we do know is that a large percentage of the dives that are done are done under some level of supervision.

The dive industry makes it easy for people by doing this.

People are doing canned dives off resort boats.

This is very true, especially off of cruises more and more. I know that Princess and Royal Caribbean has standing agreements with local dive operators for this purpose.

 

[H2Andy]

well... then the industry is changing: people are happy to plunk their money down to get enough instruction to go on canned dives and/or supervised dives.

that's what they want, that's what they get.

all indications is that this is NOT UNSAFE for the overwhelming majority of these
divers.

a few get in over their heads and Darwin steps in. most stay at that level or
get further training.

the times they are a-changing. it's a consumer society, and
diving is becoming a consumer sport, like it or not.

maybe not even "becoming." i think it has been for a while.

 

[Lawman]

I did a Westlaw computer search for Michigan. I can't find even one reported case of a lawsuit reaching the Court of Appeals or Supreme Court arising out of a diving accident. I'm sure there have been such lawsuits, but they must be extremely rare for not even one to make it to the Court of Appeals.

I've been a defense lawyer for 33 years and have only been in one case which remotely involved diving.

All things considered in Michigan anyway diving is a pretty safe sport.

PS: since PADI certifies 72% of all divers PADI would also seem to have a good record.

 

[gj62]

Here are a few estimates (albeit old) that you can use to guage growth, etc... These are grabbed from a few minutes searching on the internet, and while likely not 100% accurate, at least is discussionary in nature...

2001 - Estimates of 10 million certified divers - total for all recreational agencies. Of that, PADI indicated 1,000,000 certifications were given by them in 2001, but that includes certification to existing divers (still a large number had to have gone to new divers).

Assuming that the 10 million mark is roughly accurate, and that PADI has been certifying since the mid 60's and gave out 500,000 new certifications, that indicates some substantial recent growth.

DEMA estimated 8.5 million divers in 1998, of which 2.4 million were active. If those percentages remained close to constant, with 10 million divers, you'd have 2.8 million in 2001 - a 10% rate over 3 years - not bad, considering the economy in those times - wish I had invested in diving...

Also a way to look at is the attendance/exhibitor statistics for DEMA:

Show Attendance (attendees and exhibitors combined)
2003: 15,037 (Miami Beach)
2002: 13,387 (Las Vegas)
2001: 12,510 (New Orleans)
2000: 13,828 (Las Vegas)

Exhibitors
2003: 730 exhibiting companies
2002: 721 exhibiting companies
2001: 669 exhibiting companies
2000: 669 exhibiting companies

2001/2002 numbers show an understandable drop - 2003 a good recovery.

Obviously, DEMA has a vested interest in showing growth, but I think overall it would be tough to argue that there is no growth occuring in diving...

 

[Mako Mark]

I havn't stopped laughing since you posted that knee slapper!

I think I detect ruffled feathers and a hint of sarcasm here....

When is international lawyer appreciation day anyhow?

 

[MikeFerrara]

In what way? Sales, Service, or Certifications Granted? If it's certifications granted then we should be able to get that data directly from the certifying agencies. If it's sales then don't tell that to LeisurePro or DiveBooty. If servicing of equipment is down it's very possible this reflects how much diving is occuring.

Everything was down for many shops and resorts.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I did a Westlaw computer search for Michigan. I can't find even one reported case of a lawsuit reaching the Court of Appeals or Supreme Court arising out of a diving accident. I'm sure there have been such lawsuits, but they must be extremely rare for not even one to make it to the Court of Appeals.

I've been a defense lawyer for 33 years and have only been in one case which remotely involved diving.

All things considered in Michigan anyway diving is a pretty safe sport.

PS: since PADI certifies 72% of all divers PADI would also seem to have a good record.

Interesting. I know an instructor who just lost a student on an AOW night dive. They found him dead but there was never a law suit. Last year I coresponded with a AOW deep dive student who was dragged out of the water not breathing but there was never a law suit and on and on.

A PSD died on a training dive a few years ago and the family didn't file a suit until a second department diver died in training. These were AOW level training dives BTW. I haven't heard whether the family of the second filed or not.

It does seem that no many sue. I don't know if that indicates safe though because these divers are still dead.

 

[MikeFerrara]

well... then the industry is changing: people are happy to plunk their money down to get enough instruction to go on canned dives and/or supervised dives.

that's what they want, that's what they get.

all indications is that this is NOT UNSAFE for the overwhelming majority of these
divers.

All well and good. Should the card say "resort diver" on it? Again I'll pont out that I dived for years with NO formal training and never even had a close call. That's not proof of good training. It only suggests that maybe you don't need that training, or at least that I didn't.

a few get in over their heads and Darwin steps in. most stay at that level or
get further training.

True, but do they get in over their heads because they need to be culled or because they've been lead to believe that they are qualified when they're not?

the times they are a-changing. it's a consumer society, and
diving is becoming a consumer sport, like it or not.

maybe not even "becoming." i think it has been for a while.

Did the consumers ask for it or were they sold on it?

Buyer beware!...yes?

 

[scubadoguk]

A PSD died on a training dive a few years ago and the family didn't file a suit until a second department diver died in training. These were AOW level training dives BTW. I haven't heard whether the family of the second filed or not.
.

Lets hope you are not talking about the Indy firemen who died. They were not on a scuba advanced open water dive.
They were diving full face masks and in almost nil viz - neither were doing rec diving. The PSD training they were doing was not part of a PADI class. The public wouldn't know who sues whom. I doubt it is public record or knowledge.
The way the reply reads, it seems the PSD divers were on PADI courses - they were not.
Accidents happen, the how they happen is all guess work here, at best proving there was better ways to train in retention ponds around the city.
I have no FIRST hand knowledge of what happened only what has been told to me by diver who were there on the day, what was said is still private, rumour serves no purpose here.
The fact is for most cases never get to court, Often they are settled out of court an that is why my insurance is $650.00 and will not go down.