Tesla home battery pack and DPV battery pack Technology

[rddvet]

LOL

I see you are quite quick to throw out your knowledge/ experience in this area , but fall short from telling the truth "hard facts"... I asked about the split in the pack and cells, that’s it. Not how much its costs to build the pack or how much you mark up the battery pack ( I'm guessing %50-%60) to cover "1/2M $ worth of machine tools and spot welders"

So are you saying that most of the cost is in the DPV battery pack is in putting it together? Ie welding the 18650 cells, circuits, shielding, insulators together??

Or are you agreeing with me the batteries are too expensive.

after doing a little research

the 18650 battery costs from 4.50 to 11.30 depending on the power rating and website ( and I'm sure DSS is using the more power full ones)

4.50x120=$540 low end ones
11.30x120=$1356 higher end ones
that to me looks like most of the cost of the fury battery pack.

So let me try this again

My question is and always will be why do the DPV batteries have to be so expensive. When Telsa is coming out with cheap lithium ion batteries.

As to Tesla’s subsidiaries I was talking about earlier. I was only talking about to the consumer not what Tesla is getting from the government. The powerwall pack from telsa is 3500.00 not “it’s 10,000 but with mail in rebate it’s 3500.00” that’s all.


I started this forum because me and my DPV dive buddies complain about the cost of the battery packs. And I wanted to see if anyone else is out there feels the same way. thats it


plus what is your affiliation with DSS?

This is about to get good

 

[Jack Hammer]

[emoji2]

 

[Wookie]

Tobin owns DSS. Tobin is cool_hardware 52. Arguing with Tobin is like wrestling with a pig, he loves to get muddy. He's a great arguer, I love to get muddy too, and Tobin and I couldn't be farther apart on the political spectrum. We get muddy a lot.

 

[BRT]

Humm, I have. Elon Musk has been very successful in arraigning for his products to be developed with and purchased with tax dollars.

Tobin

I was answering the OPs question. You are correct.

 

[cool_hardware52]

LOL

I see you are quite quick to throw out your knowledge/ experience in this area , but fall short from telling the truth "hard facts"... I asked about the split in the pack and cells, that’s it. Not how much its costs to build the pack or how much you mark up the battery pack ( I'm guessing %50-%60) to cover "1/2M $ worth of machine tools and spot welders"

Thanks for reminding me why I should never try to explain how the real world works to somebody whining about cost. The real world is full of near endless costs the consumer never sees or recognizes.


If you look at only the costs of the items used to build a given pack, i.e. the direct materials. supplies and labor one can come up with some approximation of what parts contribute what percentage. Even here it's very inexact because of potential to scrap parts, or minimum order issues. Lets say I need 20 circuit boards, but the vendor only produces full sheets of 32. Do I include the cost of the "extra"12 boards in the 20 batteries? The cost is real, yet they did not are ship with the 20 complete batteries. Can we use them for the next batch? Maybe, but they may become obsolete, or the next batch is for 15 batteries….

The same concept applies to the entire battery.

Do I include the actual costs of machine tools, fixtures, prototypes, testing, spares, or should I ignore these too, as they didn't ship with the batteries either?

If I don't ignore them how exactly how should I distribute these costs over the batteries I do ship?

If I was making *one* battery I'd have to include all the associated cost on that *one* battery. If this is the case the actual costs of the components in a single battery are a *tiny* fraction of the total costs.

If I was making 10,000, I could divide all the "non reoccurring" costs by 10,000. If this is the case the actual cost of the components are most of the total cost of a single battery and the non reoccurring costs *per battery* are a tiny part of the cost. No doubt Tesla's pricing and costs reflect more battery packs than there are DPV's on the planet. This is also precisely why high volume products can support more expensive development costs like injection molds and automation. Do you really think that Tesla plans on using the same manufacturing, assembly and testing processes as we use for DPV packs?

Hopefully you understand that 1 > .0001

The reality is small volume manufacturers never know how many they are going to produce, we all have to guess. Given that we are "guessing" about what part of the price direct materials and labor, and what part of it is amortization of the non reoccurring costs any attempt to provide a percentage breakdown between the two is meaningless. (Unless of course you are a internet warrior seeking the "hard facts" behind the high cost of lithium DPV packs)

Or are you agreeing with me the batteries are too expensive.

Uh, no. Anyone who understands the challenges of building large Lithium Ion batteries for small volume applications would marvel that 1) Anyone bothers, 2) That they aren't *more* expensive

I'd love to be able to drop the price, every producer of any goods would, but that doesn't mean the current price is "too high"

We sell a ~1200 watthour Fury pack for $2850 or ~0.42 watthours / $ The typical Nimh scooter packs sell for ~ 0.50 watthours / $

A 20% premium for a battery that offers ~3 times the energy density is hardly surprising.

My question is and always will be why do the DPV batteries have to be so expensive.

Apparently even when provided with a detailed answers over and over.

When Telsa is coming out with cheap lithium ion batteries

First let's see if that ever happens, Oh by the way aren't these "cheap" lithium batteries are the ones that are going to be produced in the Reno factory with all the government subsidies?
How Elon Musk Hustled $1.4 Billion Out Of Nevada For Gigafactory

I started this forum because me and my DPV dive buddies complain about the cost of the battery packs. And I wanted to see if anyone else is out there feels the same way.

So you aren't interested in actual answers, you just want to find others to complain to?

plus what is your affiliation with DSS?

I'm the owner, founder and product designer.

Gotta run, I'll be spending my Sunday working on a prototype battery control board for *another* unreasonably expensive Lithium battery pack. Now if I could just find my box of "hard facts"…...

Tobin

 

[DiveNav]

..... Arguing with Tobin is like wrestling with a pig,.....

Tobin has huge hands too.
Tobin looks like a smith. A smith that uses his hands instead of a hammer.
Nobody should wrestle with Tobin.
I NEVER do. I don't even argue with him.

Alberto (aka eDiver)

 

[cool_hardware52]

If you really want to play with numbers try these:

Current Teslas sell for ~$85~100K

Elon Musk claims his new Reno battery plant will allow him to offer a $30~35K Telsa for the masses because his cost of lithium batteries will drop.

A "60 KWH" pack will have about 6000 cells in it. If these are now $3 each that's $18,000 worth of batteries. Even at $5 / cell that's $30,000 worth of cells. (If I had to guess, based on what I know about the pricing of cells in high volumes it's probably below $3 / cell.)

If the Reno Giga Factory could produce cells for free you only reduce the cost of the current Tesla by maybe $30K and probably more like $10K ~ $15K (note Tesla claims $12K for a replacement battery)

How does cheaper batteries get you from a $100K car to $35K car? One still needs to provide a motor and brakes and chassis and control systems and wheels and tires and interior etc.

Now lets consider how the new gigafactory in Reno cuts the cost of cells below that of existing factories in Asia.

There are no doubt some economies of scale, and improved processes that should reduce costs, but you still need Lithium, Nickel, electrolyte, labor (at US rates)

I just don't see how building batteries in Reno vs Korea drives their cost down below "free"

Tobin

 

[Wookie]

If you really want to play with numbers try these:

Current Teslas sell for ~$85~100K

Elon Musk claims his new Reno battery plant will allow him to offer a $30~35K Telsa for the masses because his cost of lithium batteries will drop.

A "60 KWH" pack will have about 6000 cells in it. If these are now $3 each that's $18,000 worth of batteries. Even at $5 / cell that's $30,000 worth of cells. (If I had to guess, based on what I know about the pricing of cells in high volumes it's probably below $3 / cell.)

If the Reno Giga Factory could produce cells for free you only reduce the cost of the current Tesla by maybe $30K and probably more like $10K ~ $15K (note Tesla claims $12K for a replacement battery)

How does cheaper batteries get you from a $100K car to $35K car? One still needs to provide a motor and brakes and chassis and control systems and wheels and tires and interior etc.

Now lets consider how the new gigafactory in Reno cuts the cost of cells below that of existing factories in Asia.

There are no doubt some economies of scale, and improved processes that should reduce costs, but you still need Lithium, Nickel, electrolyte, labor (at US rates)

I just don't see how building batteries in Reno vs Korea drives their cost down below "free"

Tobin

Kalifornia math?

 

[cool_hardware52]

Kalifornia math?

Common core.

---------- Post added May 3rd, 2015 at 11:29 AM ----------

As i was watching the keynote speech for the new Tesla home battery pack and when they announced the price will be 3000.00 7 kWH battery pack and 3500.00 10 kWh battery pack

Keep in mind that Elon Musk currently (kinda) promises to replace a 60KWH Tesla Motors battery for $12K

60KWH/$12K = 5 watthours per dollar

After his gigafactory drops the price of lithium cells you can supposedly buy 10 KWH "Power Wall" packs for the newly affordable cost of 10KWH/$3500 or ~2.85 watthours per dollar or about twice the cost per watthour as the replacement battery for a Tesla Auto.



Maybe those Gigafactory cells aren't going to be free after all…….



Tobin

 

[swansoncp]

So my question is still out there to be answered… what is you split on fury battery pack? The cost of the batteries VS them to putting them in the pack? I’m not asking about shipping cost or your mark up..

Fact –O– check time

Fact:
DSS is a subsidiary of night sun
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?page=contact

fact:
The companies have the same address
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?page=contact
NIGHTSUN Contact

Fact:
night-sun has “Current inventories include 5 CNC lathes, 2 CNC Mills, 5 Molding presses and 25 other major machine tools”
NIGHTSUN COMPANY PROFILE

fact:
The government gives out Subsidiaries to a lot of major companies. I.e. farming, gas refineries, etc.
10 Corporations Receiving Massive Public Subsidies From Taxpayers - Mic

I think subsidiaries are for start up companies or bring out a new product are ok. A subsidiary as a long-term income is bad businesses.

The comment you made about buying ½ M of machines and spot welding and find out the split… well I don’t think you did…I think you just walked next door to Night sun and used their equipment. That’s what I would do to keep cost low. However if you purchased the ½ M machines and tool to make this battery, well I can see why the battery packs are so expensive, your trying to recoup your money.

It looks like you’re very good at arguing your opinion and tippy toeing around the facts (aka my question about the split)

why keep bring up subsidiaries with Telsa ??? They add nothing to this conversation other then getting off subject, so let’s stay focused on the original question. If you would like to start a new forum /thread in a different section about Telsa’s Subsidies please do and I will join in on the conversation.

With all the lean 6 sigma, training and events that I have been part of, one of the key points to all of it is to find the constraint in the manufacturing process and improve it, to drive down cost or find the number one costly item per unit and find a way to drive down the cost. And you keep doing this over and over.

Don’t get confused about me “whining about cost” to “identify a problem and trying to fix it” Have you seen “shark tank” Barbara Corcoran, Robert Herjavec, Daymond John, Kevin O'Leary, Mark Cuban and Lori Greiner all talk about finding ways to cut costs and bring the product to a larger demographic.

Feel free to call them up and tell them they are whining about cost.


As per what Divenav said… I deal with pilots that fly 100 million dollar aircraft all day, so arguing with him is normal. As long as you stick to the facts, options don’t matter.

“One more thing” I have never heard anyone say that DPV batteries are at reasonable price. Even eelnoraa talked about to achieve 1KWH… “isn't cheap”