Talk me *OUT* of a BP/W setup

[CuzzA]

I talked to a local shop about the BP/W setup VS a BC type of system.

They sell, in store on the shelf, both rigs.

I was recommended by them not to start with a BP/W setup - not because they aren't great, and not because I may not want to move to one in the future. But rather because, as they put it (paraphrased): "It's very easy to say as a diver who has had some experience looking back that 'I should have just started with a BP/W' setup." But that's also forgetting the initial learning curve of the brand new diver - there's a lot of things to get comfortable with when first starting out, and it's much better to make sure you are fully comfortable in the water first and understand the principles through experience, not just head knowledge.

The impression I got from them (a shop who sells both) was that experienced divers tend to forget what its like to be a brand new diver. The suggestion seemed to imply, "sure, switch to a BP/W early in your career - but starting with one on your first 20-40 dives could be detrimental". They encouraged borrowing a BC or finding a used one cheap to start out, or if I was inclined, find a back inflate BC to start so that it would be an even easier transition to a BP/W principles.

I know there's a passionate pro BP/W community here and I really do think that's great and I am inclined towards it, but it was interesting to hear some advice that indicated while I may well want to be an early BP/W adopter that I really may be best served to get dives 0-50 (or 0-20, adjust to taste) under my belt before moving to a higher end setup.

Without crucifying the shop or the BC jacket, any balanced feedback and thoughts on this for starting out in the very initial diving stages? A number of other experienced and respected members, whose voices in this thread have been quieter, have also indicated the advantages of starting out with a BC while getting my feet wet. It seems this is not an uncommon sentiment.

This is a "talk me out of a BP/W setup" thread after all. (There's really no need to worry, even if I wasn't to do my first few dozen dives on one, it doesn't mean I won't convert).

Wanted to bounce these new thoughts off the community.

Definitely a good strategy to sell more gear. Honestly, buy whatever you like, not because someone told you to like it. A jacket and BP/W both do the EXACT same thing... Hold your tank and compensate buoyancy. The notion that one is advanced or not a good choice for a new diver is silly.

Do they both hold a tank? Yes
Do they both hold accessories? Yes
Do they both hold ballast? Yes
Do they both hold on to you? Yes
Do they both have an air bladder? Yes
Do they both have an inflator? Yes
Can they both keep you alive? Yes
Can they both kill a careless diver? Yes

Same thing just a different style and approach. Some are of higher quality than others. Some might find a jacket more comfortable or like the feeling of being wrapped in gear. Others may like the feeling of their gear hardly even being there, BP/W.

Try them both and buy what you like. If you change your mind in 5 years, so be it. Sell the old rig and buy a new one. Everyone loves buying new dive gear anyway.

 

[WarrenZ]

I think I can see what the dive shop is saying is there is less fiddling with the setup of a jacket BCD you just put it on and jump in the water no move drings around no add extra weight pockets no pick the right position for your wing etc...

One thing I notice about plate and wing is everyone adjusts it to their body and situation so there is some fiddling to be done to even the standard hogarthian rig. In my opinion is fine to start in a plate and wing the only drawback is that you may end up trying configurations and accessories with it that sound a lot better at the diveshop then they end up being in real life.

 

[scubadada]

Not to remind you, but SB is not the most unbiased population. I'm very successfully diving a 10 year old Scubapro Knighthawk. My next BC will be a BP&W from DSS.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .

The impression I got from them (a shop who sells both) was that experienced divers tend to forget what its like to be a brand new diver. The suggestion seemed to imply, "sure, switch to a BP/W early in your career - but starting with one on your first 20-40 dives could be detrimental". They encouraged borrowing a BC or finding a used one cheap to start out, or if I was inclined, find a back inflate BC to start so that it would be an even easier transition to a BP/W principles.

. . .

I don't agree with their logic, but I agree with their conclusion: borrow or rent various BCs for your first 10 or 20 dives or until you are satisfied you know what you like. Even their suggestion of a "used one cheap" is not ridiculous, since you can often sell what you bought on eBay for the same price you paid. Perhaps rather than a used jacket-style BC or back-inflate BC, since those are more readily available for rental and since you're using one in your OW class, I would look on eBay for a BP/W and give it a whirl. I bet after 10 dives in a BP/W and 10 in another type of BC you will know what you prefer.

 

[stuartv]

as they put it (paraphrased): "It's very easy to say as a diver who has had some experience looking back that 'I should have just started with a BP/W' setup." But that's also forgetting the initial learning curve of the brand new diver - there's a lot of things to get comfortable with when first starting out, and it's much better to make sure you are fully comfortable in the water first and understand the principles through experience, not just head knowledge.

I call baloney on that. I did my OW training in the integrated BCDs that the shop provided. As soon as I was done, I bought a used DSS BP/W and have used that (in one form or another) for every dive since then. From dive #5, on.

I don't feel like there was any extra learning curve to the BP/W other than having to educate myself on how to rig it and adjust it to fit right. I bought it used, off CraigsList, so I didn't have anyone to help with that part. If you buy it from your LDS, they should help you with that part.

Your shop sells both. It sounds to me like they want to sell you both.

 

[stuartv]

I agree, but I can see their side of the issue, too. I suspect that a desire to pamper guests is only half their rationale. The places that do this kind of "valet service" are generally resorts or liveaboards that see a lot of vacationers who don't dive on a regular basis. The unstated part of the rationale is that they don't want their guests getting hurt, and they have seen that some of their guests, to put it bluntly, don't know what they're doing or don't seem very safety-conscious, or perhaps are just a bit rusty from not having dived in a while. So, the staff don't have faith that the diver knows what he's doing any more than experienced, safety-conscious divers like you have faith that the staff know what they're doing.

Sure, but they should be testing it and labeling it when they fill it, regardless. And unless the diver is standing there watching when they analyze it, they should still be insisting that the diver analyze it (or watch) before the diver actually uses it.

 

[filmguy123]

BP/W setups also clean up and dry easier than a BC jacket is that correct?

How BIG of a difference is it if diving with an oversized wing? IE, 35lbs wing for cold water being used in tropical water when you really could get by with a 25 or maybe even a 20? Will the extra drag and airspace create that much more instability...?

I know it will, I am just wondering how much more and how noticeable or bad it is? And how would a wing that is too big like that compare to a BC jacket in tropic water?

 

[cool_hardware52]

BP/W setups also clean up and dry easier than a BC jacket is that correct?

How BIG of a difference is it if diving with an oversized wing? IE, 35lbs wing for cold water being used in tropical water when you really could get by with a 25 or maybe even a 20? Will the extra drag and airspace create that much more instability...?

I know it will, I am just wondering how much more and how noticeable or bad it is? And how would a wing that is too big like that compare to a BC jacket in tropic water?

Tough to quantify the difference between using a 35 lbs wing in conditions that allow the use of a 17, but once you have experienced the two you will understand.

Tobin

 

[StefinSB]

BP/W setups also clean up and dry easier than a BC jacket is that correct?

How BIG of a difference is it if diving with an oversized wing? IE, 35lbs wing for cold water being used in tropical water when you really could get by with a 25 or maybe even a 20? Will the extra drag and airspace create that much more instability...?

I know it will, I am just wondering how much more and how noticeable or bad it is? And how would a wing that is too big like that compare to a BC jacket in tropic water?

Also tough to answer because most jacket BCs, especially in the large sizes, have insanely big wings of 40pounds of lift.

 

[tbone1004]

could be detrimental? hah, sure. My first ever scuba dive was in a backplate and wing and many divers are trained in them from day one. There is no "learning curve" in scuba that is augmented by using one bc or another. Inflate, deflate as needed, hold the tank securely. The plates do all three of those better so your only detriment will be when you dive a jacket for the first time for some reason and want to shoot someone.

What Stefin said above is very important. Basically all jacket bc's have lift that is determined by the size. They have the advantage of being wrapped around you so it is less bad to dive a jacket with 50lbs of lift because you are a XXL in an AL80 when you only need 12lbs of lift, but conversely if you are small, that jacket may only have 20-25lbs of lift and you are diving in a thick wetsuit so you are now limited in tank size because the jacket doesn't have enough lift. You also will likely be fairly uncomfortable because the jacket is very full so it is squeezing you, and depending on where you put the lead, you may actually want to turtle over on your back because the lift is now wrapped in front of you. Bad news bears.

Now the question about lift. DSS is fairly unique in that Tobin basically designed his rigs for single tank diving. Most if not all other mfg's designed for doubles and then adapted to singles. My normal recommendation for most divers is the LCD30 wing because it is enough lift for most single tank diving, BUT and here is the crucial part of this wing, as long as you are using an AL80 *imho it's too long for 63's*, or LP95's/HP100's *24" long tanks since the wing is 26" long, then you can use it with no problem in a balanced rig with no wetsuit and an al80 where you can get away with the 12lb scooter wing. The fact that it is only 16" wide really limits any taco effect and it is really the best overall singles wing on the market.