Swivel Regs

[Shovelbum]

Just a question here. I seem to remember reading a while back that regulators with a first stage swivel weren't DIR compatable due to the possibility of the swivel 0-ring going bad. Is this correct? I've searched here on the site and on google for an answer, but I can't seem to find what I'm thinking of anymore, hwever I did find mention of several scubapro mk25's which I'm pretty sure do have swivels. Was I dreaming when I heard that the swivels were bad? Have standards changed?

Thinking of continuing education with GUE in two or three years, after I get a little more experience than I currently have. Have money to buy equipment now. Don't want to get stuff I won't be able to use in classes.

Thanks
Tom

 

[vodolaz]

Just a question here. I seem to remember reading a while back that regulators with a first stage swivel weren't DIR compatable due to the possibility of the swivel 0-ring going bad. Is this correct? I've searched here on the site and on google for an answer, but I can't seem to find what I'm thinking of anymore, hwever I did find mention of several scubapro mk25's which I'm pretty sure do have swivels. Was I dreaming when I heard that the swivels were bad? Have standards changed?

No, many use regs like the Mk25s. As long as they're properly maintained, I've been told, there's little concern. It's a matter of personal preference.

I use a swivel reg on my left post because I prefer the routing for the backup reg. Otherwise, all my first stages are non-swivel Apeks DS4s.

 

[BCS]

Just a question here. I seem to remember reading a while back that regulators with a first stage swivel weren't DIR compatable due to the possibility of the swivel 0-ring going bad. Is this correct? I've searched here on the site and on google for an answer, but I can't seem to find what I'm thinking of anymore, hwever I did find mention of several scubapro mk25's which I'm pretty sure do have swivels. Was I dreaming when I heard that the swivels were bad? Have standards changed?

Thinking of continuing education with GUE in two or three years, after I get a little more experience than I currently have. Have money to buy equipment now. Don't want to get stuff I won't be able to use in classes.

Thanks
Tom

Hi Tom,
Why wait for 2 to 3 years to go the GUE route....by that time we'll have a hell of a time helping you lose bad habits!!...start out with the good stuff and you'll never need to re-train yourself. I wish I would have started w/GUE when I started diving, my biggest issue with any of my training was falling back on bad habits learned from previous courses. (this is to include training from agencies other than GUE--there was always lack of a continuous system to build upon...I got a lot of "do what is easiest for you", which is not what I was paying an experienced instructor for, I wanted to know what worked and why)
GUE's courses do not train you one way, then as you progress change the rules and/or the way you use and configure equipment. The courses are designed using a building block method whereas each subsequent course is a stepping stone for the next, as is each component of every course. All of the GUE instructors teach the same system and for this reason, the learning curve is steep as you progress in your diving career and things only get easier and easier due to the repetition and continuity. Sorry for a bit of a hijack here, I know this is not your original question, but I couldn't resist commenting about waiting a few years to get GUE training...I did that and regret it, of course we are all individuals and you may desire something different, but this is just one man's experience.
As to swivels on 1st stages, are you asking about the turret style on the 1st stage itself, or about swivels connecting the hoses onto the 1st stage? The swivels on the hoses are just not necessary w/proper routing of proper length hoses---another "fix" for a non-existent problem with the right equipment--KISS. reduce possible failures, reduce PITA's and enjoy diving even more! The turret on the 1st stage itself is of course one more failure point as well and not necessary, so ideally, yes get a reg w/o this turret if want to remove this possibility. Although you will hear from many that have regs w/a turret and have not had any problems....the word they leave out is "yet".


take care and dive safe!---brandon

 

[sndt1319]

BCS would a swivel on the 2nd stage such as the one on the Abyss Explorer also be considered NON-DIR?

 

[BCS]

As it is an unnecessary addition of o-rings and joints, sure I would have to say that it only complicates the matter by adding greater potential of an equipment problem when it fails. Anything that makes diving more complicated and complex to cure an imaginary problem is definitely not "DIR" as I understand our philosophy. If you do not have this weak point in your system, there is no chance of it failing there. I am operating under the impression and idea that the swivel is there to facilitate a more comfortable routing of the second stage into teh diver's mouth. I think most people will find that what little improvement in comfort over a proper length hose routed properly isn't worth the PITA of calling a dive when the swivel fails and the diver has to either remove the swivel (which if you are going to end up doing anyway when it fails, why not spare yourself the hassle and forego the use of one in the first place) or rebuild it and replace the o-ring(s)...which is also a hassle. Getting rid of these small headaches will only streamline your diving experience and allow you to get down to the business of having fun....instead of lining the pockets of equipment manufacturers by buying unnecessary equipment that only seems to cure non-existent problems and create more when they in fact fail...as they will, according to Murphy.

dive safe!---brandon

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The turret on the 1st stage itself is of course one more failure point as well and not necessary, so ideally, yes get a reg w/o this turret if want to remove this possibility. Although you will hear from many that have regs w/a turret and have not had any problems....the word they leave out is "yet".

Many divers had the same concerns about first stage swivels 25 years ago which led to the development of the non swivel equipped Scubapro Mk 9 in addition to the swivel equipped Mk 10. The Mk 9 was felt to be safer by many divers as there was no swivel to fail. It was a nice theory but not one that was ever supported by field experience.

In 20 years of diving with Mk 10's in an area where Mk 10's are very common and see hard service in cold and dirty conditions, I have never seen a Mk 10 swivel or swivel o-ring fail nor have I even heard of one failing.

Due to the swivel design the o-ring is fully contained and the whole assembly is well supported. With anything approaching reasonable maintainence, failure is a complete and total non issue. in my opinion, if people are leaving off the "yet" it is because there really is no need for it and their time and money is far better spent addressing real life saftey and reliability concerns.

The larger concern that I have is that someone listening to the "no swivel is safer" argument may choose a less capable regulator just because it does not have a swivel and that would truly be a shame. And depending on the reg chosen, could create real risks in a well intentioned but mis guided the effort to eliminate an imaginary one.

In my experience, the practice of using tightly radiused hose bends close to the first stage to get an "ideal" hose routing creates a far more serious safety issue by precipitating problems with leaking and bursting LP hoses. I'll take a well designed swivel anytime.

My admittedly limited understanding is that DIR is fine with SP swivel regs and that any effort to say otherwise is perhaps motivated more by a personal preference to take a minimalist philosophy to the extreme than it is by a general DIR mandate on the issue.

 

[BCS]

In 20 years of diving with Mk 10's in an area where Mk 10's are very common and see hard service in cold and dirty conditions, I have never seen a Mk 10 swivel or swivel o-ring fail nor have I even heard of one failing.

Good points DA Aquamaster and I admit that this particular issue is a minute detail that some DIR advocates and players do not fully agree on.
As far as the failure issue goes, I guess it just depends on who you ask, but in my only 18 years of diving I have seen them fail. I have seen brands other than SP have the swivel/turrets fail. I used to see it more when I worked on the bench servicing the regs. I have to admit I have never seen it become life threatening, but I can say w/confidence that it pissed off the owners. I also will admit that it does not happen often. By that same token I have never seen a non swivel/turret style reg fail at the turret. For me, I'll live w/o the swivel and remove the headache. In my DIR courses, when asked, I will advise leaving the turret reg in the shop's showcase and thus removing one potential failure point.
Speaking for myself, I am not motivated by anything other than to simplify diving and to teach DIR as I have been taught to do so and as I understand it. To that extent, yes I am a minimalist and I do not advocate using any piece of equipment that does not simplify diving and allow the diver to concentrate on enjoying the actual dive instead of maintaining (needless) equipment that has potential to fail. I will always advise removing the potential to fail so long as it is w/o any detriment to the diving experience.
All this being said, sure there are many DIR advocates and even some of the big name players using regs w/a turret, but if you want an answer that fits into the philosphy of the system, remove the potential failure points that are not necessary to the diving. The swivel is a nice "extra" that accomodates hose routing, that's all. For some that is worth the small risk of the failure. Others feel that the hose has less potential to fail if bent than turret.
I am only answering the original question as to whether it fits into the DIR system philosphy. And as I said earlier, as I understand it and as I teach it, the swivels do not present enough of a benefit to hose routing to advocate using them vs. a non swivel with a good routing platform.
FWIW. I wouldn't get too caught up in this Internet hoopla...remove the label and DIR is just a system of removing the BS and getting down to diving safer and thus more enjoyably. If you feel more comfortable w/a swivel, have at it, it doesn't make you a bad person and is not a game ender for being "DIR" if that is a concern. I was only answering the question as I would have answered any student in my class. Like I said, there are many players that are DIR that use regs w/turrets, and this only goes to show one how small a part the equipment lays in the big picture.

dive safe!!---brandon

 

[Shovelbum]

Thanks for the answers guys, I was talking about the turrets on the first stage. My thoughts here were revolving around the Apeks DS4 without a turret or the DST that comes stock (I think) with the ATX 50 that does have the turret. Basically, I don't really care whether I have one or not, but circumstances may lead to me having the turret rather than not.

Why wait for 2 to 3 years to go the GUE route....by that time we'll have a hell of a time helping you lose bad habits!!...start out with the good stuff and you'll never need to re-train yourself. I wish I would have started w/GUE when I started diving, my biggest issue with any of my training was falling back on bad habits learned from previous courses.

I'll keep this in mind, and I would like to do DIRf soon if it's coming anywhere near Chicago. Problem though, I haven't been able to dive for about a year and a half, due to a combination of graduate school and fourty to sixty hour work weeks on top of that + living five hours from the nearest water with visibility of more than three inches. I also managed to sell off all of my gear to pay for tuition one semester...that was stupid. Looking forward to getting in the water again soon, especially since I just moved to Chicago and there's a freaking huge lake about three hundred feet from my doorstep. I really meant continuing with RecTriox or Tech 1 after 2 or 3 years (prefereably two). You never know though, we'll see.

Thanks all
Tom

 

[vodolaz]

Thanks for the answers guys, I was talking about the turrets on the first stage. My thoughts here were revolving around the Apeks DS4 without a turret or the DST that comes stock (I think) with the ATX 50 that does have the turret. Basically, I don't really care whether I have one or not, but circumstances may lead to me having the turret rather than not.

For diving in the Great Lakes, you might want to go with a diaphragm reg (DS4, DST) over a piston (Mk25) since they are supposed to be less prone to freezing up. I don't dive cold water enough for freeze ups to be an issue. If I did, I'd switch it out for a DS4.

I consider the DST inferior to the Mk25 because it lacks an end port, which I use to route the backup reg. It also has a non-standard port (1/2").

Depending on your source, it's easy to get DS4s with ATX-50s without having to bother with DSTs.

 

[cortez]

Before I say anything else, I want it known that I do not intend this comment to be sarcastic, rude or pointed at anyone. I say this because things can get taken the wrong way and life get ugly...

That being said, if swivel regulators are not DIR, why does the GUE manual for the fundamentals course show ScubaPro Mk18/Mk20/Mk25 regulators -all of which are swivel first stages- throughout?