Switching to BP/W, need wing advice

[The Chairman]

This actually deserves it's own thread, but since it has been mentioned here:

***SAFETY ADVISORY***

Breathing off of your BC at depth is DANGEROUS for any reason, but especially for being OOA (Out Of Air).

It's a VERY bad idea: DON'T DO IT!

As an instructor for NAUI, SDI and TDI, I can not think of anything more preposterous to advocate. I know of NO agency which encourages or even tolerates this practice.

If you have any questions or comments about this advisory or do not understand how to make an Emergency Ascent, please start another thread!

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

*** END SAFETY ADVISORY***​

4. Tell us how it is unsafe on a bladder that you know has been disinfected. I'm not advocating breathing from the bladder that would also be exhaling back into the bladder which would increase the CO2 level and could lead to shallow water blackout. I'm saying it is safe to suck the clean air out of your clean bladder to control ascent instead of taking a regulator out of your mouth during a OOA situation where a diver may already be ask loaded. This is for your own gear when you know the condition!!!

 

[Codyjp]

There was the advisory out yesterday about flaming etc. The challenge members face is when they read something like what RAwalker is advocating and feel the need to correct this misinformation. Unfortunately for some it is perceived as a flame or stalking when in fact it is just trying to straiten out a lot of bad info.

Pete, thanks for helping us get this particular subject cleared up.

 

[DevonDiver]

I'm not advocating breathing from the bladder that would also be exhaling back into the bladder which would increase the CO2 level and could lead to shallow water blackout.

fftopic:

Slight hijack for the benefit of RAWalker.... as I know he is studying for his DM at the moment...and should know this.

The increase in breathed CO2 level would lead to Hypercapnia.

Hypercapnia or hypercapnea (from the greek hyper = "above" and kapnos = "smoke"), also known as hypercarbia, is a condition where there is too much carbon dioxide (CO2) in the blood. Carbon dioxide is a gaseous product of the bodys' metabolism and is normally expelled on exhalation. Hypercapnia normally triggers a reflex which increases breathing rate.

Symptoms and signs of early hypercapnia include flushed skin, full pulse, extrasystoles, muscle twitches, hand flaps, reduced neural activity, and possibly a raised blood pressure. Other symptoms of mild hypercapnia might include headache, confusion and lethargy. Hypercapnia can induce increased cardiac output, an elevation in arterial blood pressure, and a propensity toward arrhythmias. In severe hypercapnia, symptomatology progresses to disorientation, panic, hyperventilation, convulsions, unconsciousness, and eventually death.

In contrast, Shallow Water Blackout is caused by Hypoxia. A shallow water blackout is a loss of consciousness caused by cerebral hypoxia towards the end of /ascent from a breath-hold dive in water typically shallower than five metres (16 feet).

Hypoxia is defined as a pathological condition in which the body as a whole or region of the body is deprived of adequate oxygen supply. Thus cerebral hypoxia is the deprivation of oxygen to the brain.

This happens because the breath hold diver may hyper-ventilate prior to the dive and achieve a state of hypocapnia. Hypocapnia reduces the reflexive respiratory drive, allows the delay of breathing and leaves the diver susceptible to loss of consciousness from hypoxia. This is especially true in the case of deep breath-hold dives where the effect of increased pressure sustains an 'atrificially' high PPO2 (partial pressure of oxygen) within the body, which drops rapidly as pressure reduces on ascent, leading to sudden blackout.

Hypocapnia is a state of reduced carbon dioxide in the blood. Hypocapnia usually results from deep or rapid breathing, known as hyperventilation (over-breathing). Hypocapnia is the opposite of bypercapnia.

The confusion between the condition of Hypercapnia and role of Hypocapnia in Shallow Water Blackout often leads people to make the same basic error as RAWalker.

Now...job done... educating finished....I'm off for a beer.

p.s RAWalker...you can tell your instructor that he owes me that beer for doing his job for him!

:focus:

 

[Splitlip]

I dive an oxycheq single tank wing and I am very pleased. This is the older one not the Mach series. I believe Deep Sea Supplies has the best wings with Oxycheq Mach series being second best. If I could go back I would have gotten a DSS because they are cut very well and are very streamlined and rugged.

MODS!!!

Don't start that one again!!! (June of '05 I think)

 

[Scott L]

I'll toss my 2 cents into this one... I'm the Husband of the OP and she was trying to get some feedback before spending MY money!... After a few months of research / plenty of summer dives on the new gear, and the fundies course, I can weigh in on what some of our take aways were from this post.

S ended up on a 32 HOG wing. It is a bit larger than she/we need. but adding some trim pockets on to the camband kept it a little flatter. (we noticed a slight taco-ing inthe video prior to adding the trim pockets.) This would support Tobin's comments about a smaller wing. (A side note I met a diver with a smaller DSS wing and was very impressed with it. It was a little tighter down the sides and that will be a consideration moving forward.) She chose that wing as it was the one I have and we got great deals on them.

I agree with some other folks that there is no such thing as a dual purpose wing that would work for any serious diver. You need the right wing for the job.

The first night of class we did go over the harness setup. She was concerned about getting out of it with ease on the boat as a poster had mentioned. I had installed a 2 inch quick release below the left chest dring. However - we looped 5 inches of webbing in line behind it. This maintained a single piece of webbing, but gave her the extra room to get out of the harness on those rocky days. We removed it for the class, ended up tighting up the sholder straps, and guess what? She can still get out! Just took a little practice.

As well as I clean our gear after each dive, I would never suck a breath off the wing.

And lastly, I've come to one conclusion. If it works well for a bunch of other people, while I may have my own ideas, I need to at least be open to what the others who have done it first have to say. It doesn't always mean they are right, but I can learn from the ideas they propose and come up with my own conclusion. That's why I love SB. Lots of folks willing to help. We can toss out some ideas and get some good feedback. But as I think of it, when it comes right down to it, the OP is just really lucky to have me as a buddy!

Thanks for posting and keep it up!

I am a larger than normal guy who had struggled a bit to get out of my BP/Wing (Halcyon) rig. I must doff in the water as my best friend will not install a ladder on his 34' Venture. When recently taking my GUE-F class Doug M replaced my softer H stamped webbing with a stiffer selection Extreme Exposure had in inventory and I benefited greatly...

 

[gsk3]

Since most of the posts here have been by "experts," I wanted to chime in with my wife and my experience as a non-expert. Specifically:
1. Tobin's comment that dual-purpose wings are a tax on newbies jives with our experience. Bought it new when we finished OW, sold it some months later when I nearly blew to the surface because I simply couldn't dump the trapped air no matter what direction I wriggled in. Lost 50% of the value in the process. We're now on a 30lbs singles wing and are much, much happier.
2. Comfort harnesses may or may not be more comfortable. Ours have big metal loops that dig into my clavicle. When the budget recovers from buying new wings, these are getting switched out next.

 

[DevonDiver]

It's a common occurance. So sad to hear that you wasted money on the initial set-up.

When I was new to BP/W I made the same mistake with a comfort harness. I also made a mistake with my choice of doubles wing. It wasn't until I did some training with Mark Powell that I learnt the error of my ways...and things improved drastically thereafter. As an instructor, I have seen the same 'learning process' occur to many students and customers of mine.

A fortune must be wasted each year on badly considered scuba kit purchases - especially when it comes to BP/W.

 

[gsk3]

It's a common occurance. So sad to hear that you wasted money on the initial set-up.

A fortune must be wasted each year on badly considered scuba kit purchases - especially when it comes to BP/W.

At least we had the good fortune of starting with a BP/W, so the wing has really been the only thing we had to replace. A fairly cheap lesson, all-told.