Switching to BP/W, need wing advice

[cool_hardware52]

If you want to quote me as preaching horrors put it into the same context as I did in each case.
1. The dual purpose wing was for a user that wanted to get involved with BP&W spending as little as possible and having the most possible versatility from his rig

Is this why you now own two wings? Errr One for singles and doubles and another one for singles?

2. I never said unsafe I said "I feel that wings with lift capacities under 30# don't have enough benefit in drag or buoyancy characteristics to even be considered. A quality 30# wing like the Oxycheq is streamline and has more lift capacity so drag isn't a consideration."

Again have you ever actually used a wing smaller than 30 lbs.?

3. Add in the warning about weather changes and chop in explaining why I prefer a harness with at least 1 shoulder release. (so much more complex)

That's going to big hit when the OP carries in her rig to the gear lecture the first night of her upcoming GUE Fundies course.

4. Tell us how it is unsafe on a bladder that you know has been disinfected. I'm not advocating breathing from the bladder that would also be exhaling back into the bladder which would increase the CO2 level and could lead to shallow water blackout. I'm saying it is safe to suck the clean air out of your clean bladder to control ascent instead of taking a regulator out of your mouth during a OOA situation where a diver may already be ask loaded. This is for your own gear when you know the condition!!!
Show me where is it contrary?

So you culture the contents of your wing prior to every use?

So you can join the club with DD if you want to discredit someone use care to do a good job. Not including all the facts or parameters of the situations just discredits you!

Although it's almost certainly pointless I'll try one last time.

Look at the title of this thread. We have a diver switching to a BP&W.

New divers or new BP&W users are not well served with lots of minutia. Keep it simple.

Provide the information OP asked for. Give them the tools they need to evaluate the often bewildering array of marketing driven options.

Point them in the direction most likely to be successful, that optimizes the benefits of a BP&W, not some "make do" compromise that defeats many of the inherent advantages that the OP is clearly seeking.

The OP clearly states she getting ready for a GUE fundementals class, and yet you are recommending a harness style that she will not be permitted to use in that very class.

The reason I am moving over to BP/W is I am taking the GUE Fundies class later this year and it's required you have your own BP/W.

First I believe the deluxe harness to be a better choice for a diver that does boat trips. This is due to the need for a shoulder release in rough waters. To get out of a HOG harness if you can't do the chicken wing you need to dip under and let the rig go over your head. This can be a real hazzard in rough water.

How is this possibly of service to the OP?

I admittedly go against the popular opinion in my BP&W configuration.

You admit you are outside the mainstream, yet you scream foul when others point out this very fact.

You are driven to direct new divers to solutions that most will ultimately find needlessly complex, and needlessly expensive. Why I have no idea.

Tobin

 

[Gombessa]

It's hard to argue with Tobin here. In case you're not familiar with GUE or its Fundamentals class, there are fairly specific requirements on the type of gear that may be used (e.g, non-split fins, long-hose primary with bungeed backup, non-bungeed wing, continuous webbing harness without buckles or quick-releases). Also taught will be how to balance a rig, and the concept of an arbitrarily wing size without regard to necessary lift or other requirements is wholly foreign to the class.

 

[Goindrinkn]

I'll toss my 2 cents into this one... I'm the Husband of the OP and she was trying to get some feedback before spending MY money!... After a few months of research / plenty of summer dives on the new gear, and the fundies course, I can weigh in on what some of our take aways were from this post.

S ended up on a 32 HOG wing. It is a bit larger than she/we need. but adding some trim pockets on to the camband kept it a little flatter. (we noticed a slight taco-ing inthe video prior to adding the trim pockets.) This would support Tobin's comments about a smaller wing. (A side note I met a diver with a smaller DSS wing and was very impressed with it. It was a little tighter down the sides and that will be a consideration moving forward.) She chose that wing as it was the one I have and we got great deals on them.

I agree with some other folks that there is no such thing as a dual purpose wing that would work for any serious diver. You need the right wing for the job.

The first night of class we did go over the harness setup. She was concerned about getting out of it with ease on the boat as a poster had mentioned. I had installed a 2 inch quick release below the left chest dring. However - we looped 5 inches of webbing in line behind it. This maintained a single piece of webbing, but gave her the extra room to get out of the harness on those rocky days. We removed it for the class, ended up tighting up the sholder straps, and guess what? She can still get out! Just took a little practice.

As well as I clean our gear after each dive, I would never suck a breath off the wing.

And lastly, I've come to one conclusion. If it works well for a bunch of other people, while I may have my own ideas, I need to at least be open to what the others who have done it first have to say. It doesn't always mean they are right, but I can learn from the ideas they propose and come up with my own conclusion. That's why I love SB. Lots of folks willing to help. We can toss out some ideas and get some good feedback. But as I think of it, when it comes right down to it, the OP is just really lucky to have me as a buddy!

Thanks for posting and keep it up!

 

[Splitlip]

For the OP:

I am over on the right coast. I have 18# and 30# Oxy Mach V wings. I dive steel tanks and the 18# is fine all year long, but I thing the 30# is more appropriate in the winter months.

I don't like the DR Venture. Too much wing here and it tacos with the bias at the waist which I presumed was designed to offset weights on a belt.

I had a 32 OMS which I think is the same OEM as the HOG. Good wing, but the narrow profiles are so much better in achieving precision bubble management. I am a fan of donuts.

A hog 1 piece harness is by far the best way for you to go unlees you have some kind of Physical condition. Much less costly than a fancy harness. Don't cut it when you purchase it. If you think you really have issues doffing it, you can add a buckle or make a few weight belts.

 

[Splitlip]

oops. did not see the conclusion of the thread.

Glad it all worked out.

 

[Splitlip]

To get out of a HOG harness if you can't do the chicken wing you need to dip under and let the rig go over your head. This can be a real hazzard in rough water.

Whoa Bro. No intent to flame, but that is kind of, well, wrong. Chicken wing means putting a hand behind the shoulder strap and letting the strap slide down the arm off the elbo. Sitting on a boat I can also hook my thumbs in the d-rings and remove the harness like a Jacket. I can also slip it off from a standing position on the dock. I have not done the over the head thing in 15 years (when I used aluminum tanks, LOL)

Some people may benefit with a simple release, but your statement makes it sound much more difficult than it is.

 

[DevonDiver]

Whoa Bro. No intent to flame, but that is kind of, well, wrong.

I agree 100%. Some things are open to opinion (I prefer 'x' over 'y') but other things are more black and white / right or wrong.

To claim that a HOG harness is difficult to remove is wrong, plain and simple. However, it is a common view held be new BP/W users who have not had the correct instruction on how to size the wing - particularly the shoulder straps.

RAWalker would be well served to listen to some of the advice offered on the subject by more experienced divers on the forum, because there is a quick and easy solution to the problems he has thus far encountered with using a HOG harness.

Chicken wing means putting a hand behind the shoulder strap and letting the strap slide down the arm off the elbo. Sitting on a boat I can also hook my thumbs in the d-rings and remove the harness like a Jacket. I can also slip it off from a standing position on the dock. I have not done the over the head thing in 15 years (when I used aluminum tanks, LOL)

On the boat or in the water, my shoulder straps can easily be shrugged off my shoulders. Getting out of the harness is easy-peasy.... a 2 second affair.

Underwater, I can even shrug my arms out of the shoulder straps, whilst the waist belt is firmly closed. I make a point of assisting any BP/W users that come to my center on this issue... and they are invariably delighted to learn the difference that a properly adjusted harness can make.

I think that the underlying cause behing many people's problems with HOG harnesses is that they get used to having tight shoulder straps, after they become pre-programmed in tightening the releases on jacket-style BCDs. You have to do this with jacket bcds because they tend to 'wallow' around otherwise. This is not the case with a BP/W.

Some people may benefit with a simple release, but your statement makes it sound much more difficult than it is.

It does. You cannot blame the poster for his inexperience, but it is unfair that such suggestions may lead other divers into the same trap of buying expensive, unnecessarily compex 'solutions' to a problem that stems simply from bad initial education on how to correctly fit a HOG harness.

 

[SeaHound]

I dive an oxycheq single tank wing and I am very pleased. This is the older one not the Mach series. I believe Deep Sea Supplies has the best wings with Oxycheq Mach series being second best. If I could go back I would have gotten a DSS because they are cut very well and are very streamlined and rugged.

 

[DevonDiver]

If you want to quote me as preaching horrors put it into the same context as I did in each case.

I think that enought well qualified and respected dive professionals have already made issue with the logic or 'correctness' of your posts. I don't want this to turn into another silly arguement, so please don't see this as a personal attack. You need to understand that many seasoned dive professionals spend time on this forum so that they can pass on their knowledge and experience for the benefit of others.

You are not yet a seasoned, experienced diver, nor have any experience in the dive industry. That isn't an insult, it is a fact. As such, maybe you should be more open-minded to the honest, impartial advice from people like Cool_hardware52... after all, he does run one a very well respected BP/W manufacturing company.

If you genuinely feel that you have more knowledge and experience on the subject that he does, then there is no help for you...

1. The dual purpose wing was for a user that wanted to get involved with BP&W spending as little as possible and having the most possible versatility from his rig

I think you failed to read the initial OP's question properly. The OP stated that they were doing a GUE Fundies course. I suggest you do a little research on the requirements stated by GUE/UTD/DIR.... as your suggestions were entirely inappropriate for her needs.

Unless you were suggesting that the OP took a dual-purpose, over-sized, bungeed wing to a GUE class and should argue with them on the basis of your experience?

2. I never said unsafe I said "I feel that wings with lift capacities under 30# don't have enough benefit in drag or buoyancy characteristics to even be considered. A quality 30# wing like the Oxycheq is streamline and has more lift capacity so drag isn't a consideration."

Again... you fail to clarify what you mean by 'drag'? Please avoid using terms that you don't understand.... or that you have made up.

There are plenty of threads on this site that debate the merits and drawbacks of having surplus lift capacity. Have a search. You may enjoy educating yourself on the real issues or even start a new thread where you can ask why having a surpus capacity wing is a bad idea.

3. Add in the warning about weather changes and chop in explaining why I prefer a harness with at least 1 shoulder release. (so much more complex)

You did specifically state, several times, "comfort harness". You do realize that all of the experienced contributors on this subject are more than fully aware of what sea conditions are like don't you?

The advice that you have been given is that a properly sized HOG harness is simply to remove and replace, regardless of water conditions. Why don't you go an evaluate that advice in the water, before trying to argue against it?

4. Tell us how it is unsafe on a bladder that you know has been disinfected. I'm not advocating breathing from the bladder that would also be exhaling back into the bladder which would increase the CO2 level and could lead to shallow water blackout. I'm saying it is safe to suck the clean air out of your clean bladder to control ascent instead of taking a regulator out of your mouth during a OOA situation where a diver may already be ask loaded. This is for your own gear when you know the condition!!!
Show me where is it contrary?

There is no written info to the contrary, because what you suggest is not an approved technique by any agency. As trainee PADI divemaster, and qualified Rescue Diver....were you ever taught to use this technique? Can you find it within the instructional syllabus of any scuba training agency?

To provide advice, on emergency drills, on a public forum, based on an self-designed, non-standard improvised technique is incredibly unethical.

When you find yourself in opposition to the experienced dive professionals on this forum...and the recommendations of every dive agency in the industry....it should raise some questions in your own mind about the validity of your 'suggestion'?!?

Regarding your definition of 'clean'.... the nearest approved solution to properly disinfecting a container from which you would breath is the process used by rebreather divers for disinfecting their counter-lungs. However, you should note that counter-lungs are a sealed loop...and not subject to (contaminated) water ingress like a BCD bladder is. In that case, there is no simularity between RB counter-lungs and a BCD bladder....

It is standard for rebreather divers to use a powerful disinfectant solution containing the active ingredient chlorhexidine. I don't think any oral antiseptic solutions/mouth washes contain this?!?

If you want to understand the issues, a study was performed, for the Canadian military, to assess the health hazards of using disinfectants to clean re-breathers, as well as, assess the capability of disinfectants to kill the full spectrum of biological contaminants (bacterial, viral, and fungal) to which divers might be exposed. 9 disinfectants were found to be used by divers nationally and internationally (Virkon S., Sanizide, Confidence, Advance TBE, BI-Arrest, Buddy Clean, Trigene II, Listerine, Cavicide) and all were evaluated against the same criteria. In order to be recommended for use two mandatory criteria had to be complied with; the product had to exhibit an absence of components that would cause undue risk to human health during use that could not be prevented by reasonable protective measures, and proof must be available to indicate the disinfectant was effective. Products should be able to kill the full spectrum of viruses, bacteria and fungi that divers could be exposed while using a re-breather.

I don't think anyone included anti-septic mouthwas in the study

So you can join the club with DD if you want to discredit someone use care to do a good job. Not including all the facts or parameters of the situations just discredits you!

You can only discredit someone who is 'credible'. Nobody has an agenda to 'make you look bad'.... but those with experience and education do want to ensure that the members of this site dont recieve poor advice that would cost them unnecessary expense, provide a less than optimum solution or jeapordize their safety.

 

[The Chairman]

Of all the people who have offered opinions in here... I would listen the closest to Tobin! I have been diving DSS gear almost since Tobin began making it and I LOVE it. His advice is just as sound as the product he produces and no one comes close to the manufacturing excellence that Tobin has. I have found over the years that those who want to disagree with Tobin usually have another agenda or are simply a legend in their own mind (take your pick). If he says 20 pounds is all you need, then that's all you need. I own 4 DSS wings for different diving agendas. Every time I dive with Tobin's 20 pound wing, I simply am in awe at how well it performs and keeps me safe even in rough seas or the dark underground water of Bonne Terre Mine.