Starting Technical diving GUE Vs TDI VS PADI?

[jadairiii]

....
Perhaps some GUE instructors are decent human beings. I haven't met any, though. ....

Sorry for your experience with GUE. I "knew" Dean from my dealings with Brownies, but not really as an instructor. I can tell you that there a lot of GUE instructors out there and to base you opinion on one is a bit biased.

I have had the opportunity to have been diving with and been taught by a few GUE instructors since 1997 and they have all been positive, David Rhea, Meredith Tanguay, Max Frenkel, Gideon Liew, Bob Sherwood, Errol Kalayci and all the guys at Zero Gravity, to name a few, and all have been great people, completely opposite of your experience. (no to mention those I have met but not dived with)

Errol Kalayci just certified my daughter this July for GUE Rec 1 (check out the post I did), and I would say I would not trust her with anyone else, but truly any of those names above I would have gladly let her take any of their courses. But Errol did do an amazing with her class, highly recommend him for Rec or Fundies.

Sometimes you just need to let the past go.

 

[Doc Harry]

Sometimes you just need to let the past go.

Sure - as soon as GUE compensates me for the thousands of dollars that I spent.

Until then, I will continue to be a vocal consumer.

 

[ginti]

Hi @Doc Harry, thanks for the reply. When I said "more details" I was specifically thinking about how GUE handled your complaints, which you explained: you sent some letters and called their office, but you got no reply. Clear; now, I have no idea of how big the agency was at that time, but there might have been a communication issue, for example.

By the way, the board of directors changed in the last 11 years, so even if there was a problem with somebody at the top of the organization, that person may be out now.

To me, it seems that you had a bad experience with an instructor that is not even anymore GUE. But how can you judge an entire organization basing on an experience with only an instructor who is not even anymore part of that organization? I can imagine there is a bit of anger, but just let it go, it is useless for you

 

[Jack Hammer]

@Doc Harry, I'm not dismissing your story or sticking up for GUE here, not trying to argue either. I wasn't there to witness your account of taking training. I'm putting this so others can follow. I'm neither a GUE instructor nor a fanboy.

I'm pretty confident I can say why your story gets questioned. In short, GUE has very strict protocols on what an instructor is allowed to do. Most of each single complaint you listed are in of themselves grounds for that instructors dismissal. To be clear, not a talking to or a suspension, but a full revokation of their expensive and difficult to obtain qualification to teach any GUE course. Now add in several instructors each risking their instructorships just so they could stand around and humiliate you publicly, which BTW, is strictly forbidden. Panos takes these things very seriously. People have got in trouble for far less single infractions, let alone a CF of a class full of them.

 

[Doc Harry]

Jack Hammer
Perhaps that is why Dean is no longer with GUE, But I don't know, because no one with GUE management ever responded to me. I heard unsubstantiated rumors that Dean was prohibited from teaching fundies anymore, but he stayed on teaching advanced tech. If true, it sounds like Dean had lost his empathy and patience with new divers. But no one at GUE ever got back to me about my concerns, so it's a rumor.

 

[RainPilot]

If you want to have a personal issue with Dean, fine, it is a grudge over a ten year old scuba class (that you apparently can't remember the exact dates for or the instructor's name) but leave it at that; Stop throwing a whole organization under the bus for something one person did a decade ago.

I can tell you that there a lot of GUE instructors out there and to base you opinion on one is a bit biased.

GUE is often recommended on this Board and in real life on the basis of it's instructor QA. The recurring theme is:

• It's the instructor not the agency
• Big agencies don't have control of what their instructors do
• GUE has very tight control of their instructors
• If you go GUE, you do not have to be super careful about who you pick as the quality will be pretty consistent.

Considering that GUE has made a lot of money off referrals based on the above, over the years (including from me), I feel that discussions of individual GUE instructors is pertinent to and reflects on the agency in a way that it wouldn't with, for example, PADI or SSI or any other "mainstream" agency.

On a personal note, I have had truly horrendous individuals teaching me courses over the years, and honestly I do not remember the name of the idiot that taught my Artillery Fire Control course, but I do remember my reactions at the time (very similar in fact to what Doc remembers of how he was treated). We tend to repress details of unhappy events and retain the emotional memory. That helps us avoid future issues but doesn't traumatise us with non-useful details.

As far as GUE goes, for me, this is one negative data point. It isn't enough for me to change my mind on the whole agency but if I start to get more data points like this my opinion would, of necessity, change. I have a LOT of negative data points of GUE divers, but they all seem to be GUE-F and maybe Tech 1 (recent) graduates. I know a couple of GUE Instructors and I have nothing bad to say about any of them. Relaxed to dive with and not a hint of Kool Aid to be found.

YMM, as always, V.

 

[CptTightPants21]

GUE is often recommended on this Board and in real life on the basis of it's instructor QA. The recurring theme is:

• It's the instructor not the agency
• Big agencies don't have control of what their instructors do
• GUE has very tight control of their instructors
• If you go GUE, you do not have to be super careful about who you pick as the quality will be pretty consistent.

Considering that GUE has made a lot of money off referrals based on the above, over the years (including from me), I feel that discussions of individual GUE instructors is pertinent to and reflects on the agency in a way that it wouldn't with, for example, PADI or SSI or any other "mainstream" agency.

On a personal note, I have had truly horrendous individuals teaching me courses over the years, and honestly I do not remember the name of the idiot that taught my Artillery Fire Control course, but I do remember my reactions at the time (very similar in fact to what Doc remembers of how he was treated). We tend to repress details of unhappy events and retain the emotional memory. That helps us avoid future issues but doesn't traumatise us with non-useful details.

As far as GUE goes, for me, this is one negative data point. It isn't enough for me to change my mind on the whole agency but if I start to get more data points like this my opinion would, of necessity, change. I have a LOT of negative data points of GUE divers, but they all seem to be GUE-F and maybe Tech 1 (recent) graduates. I know a couple of GUE Instructors and I have nothing bad to say about any of them. Relaxed to dive with and not a hint of Kool Aid to be found.

YMM, as always, V.

This is a fair response.

Although, I will point out that you aren't attacking an entire military branch because of one idiot instructor.

You can go back and nearly all the GUE recommendation threads have the caveat about personality clash and still needing to speak with and gel with your instructor.

The guarantee is on the material that is covered, the skills that are taught, the clearly defined quality of skill execution needed to pass evaluation, and the diving and teaching experience of the instructor. The rigorous mentoring and co-teaching needed to become an instructor--no such thing a some fly by night 'tech instructor' with only a couple hundred dives (there is almost a hundred dives on the road to being an instructor!). There is some consideration of methods, but I would call it a soft guarantee as every GUE instructor I have seen uses different methods to achieve the same goal.

I have the same experience that you do; lots of zealot GUE fundies students, vast majority of GUE instructors very chill and fun loving people. I have a couple of GUE instructors that I don't recommend to people, but I discuss my issues with people privately. Some times circumstances dictate that they use an instructor I don't recommend, which is fine, but at least they go in with their eyes open. Even though I don't get along with a particular instructor and don't like their teaching styles, I can't deny their experience level, I can't deny the course material is very detailed, I can't deny the quality of skill execution needed to pass, etc.

 

[Doc Harry]

GUE is often recommended on this Board and in real life on the basis of it's instructor QA. The recurring theme is:

• It's the instructor not the agency
• Big agencies don't have control of what their instructors do
• GUE has very tight control of their instructors
• If you go GUE, you do not have to be super careful about who you pick as the quality will be pretty consistent.

Great thoughts.

One of the main reasons for me trying GUE, as a former naval aviator, was the GUE standards and tight control. Seemed to me that GUE had the perfect philosophy for technical diving and cave diving. In the military, we had a rigorous and standardized operations program to minimize the obvious risks of flying 30-ton combat jets from aircraft carriers. The GUE philosophy was very attractive to me for this reason.

Until GUE-F, I had done all of my dive training with PADI instructors. Despite that fact that I insisted on rigorous instruction and unfiltered criticism of my technique, I was always given glowing 5-star ratings by my PADI instructors and told that I did everything perfectly. I knew this was always public-relations B.S., and I grew very frustrated with PADI. I had no objective measure of of how I was progressing in my dive training. I knew that, with GUE, I wasn't going to pass without meeting the standards. How refreshing!

I discussed this in detail with my my GUE-F instructor (Dean) before the class, and asked for an objective assessment of my skills and guidance for improvement. Instead, I was ridiculed and never given any constructive feedback. There was more than one GUE instructor there, and they all joined in the roast. Maybe I was a really bad diver at that time, but I never claimed to be any good. I only claimed that I didn't know where I stood as a diver, and I wanted real help from GUE.

I didn't get any help. This reflects badly on the instructors and the entire GUE agency as a whole. Again - that was my experience, and no one in GUE has apologized, tried to change my experience, or even responded to any of my calls. All GUE does is call me a liar and tell me to forget about it. That ain't happening.

 

[ginti]

This reflects badly on the instructors and the entire GUE agency as a whole.

I still do not get why a single episode with "some" instructors (of which at least one is not even part of GUE anymore) would represent the entire GUE agency

All GUE does is call me a liar and tell me to forget about it.

You never said it before (you said you never get a response, didn't you?). If they did, the situation is fairly different from what you described before, and I may understand why you are speaking about the whole agency...

 

[Doc Harry]

...and I may understand why you are speaking about the whole agency...

The answer is obvious.
Of all the people in GUE who know about this incident, what have any of them done to correct this problem? How many of them reached out to me to provide me with a better experience?

NONE