Sport Chalet and Nitrox ????

[mccabejc]

More info on the rules concerning EAN:

http://www.asse.org/govupdate_2-10-03_osha.htm

I'm not an OSHA guy, but it looks like the above link is for Commercial Diving Operations, and it's just a proposal from 2003, not a real rule.

I found part of the approved standard called "Alternative Conditions Under 1910.401(a)(3) for Recreational Diving Instructors and Diving Guides (Mandatory) - 1910 Subpart T App C" that seems to modify the commercial code for the folks we're talking about:

OSHA Part 1910 Stuff

It says "Paragraph (a)(3) of § 1910.401 specifies that an employer of recreational diving instructors and diving guides (hereafter, "divers" or "employees") who complies with all of the conditions of this appendix need not provide a decompression chamber for these divers as required under §§ 1910.423(b)(2) or (c)(3) or 1910.426(b)(1)."

There's a section 6 down near the bottom which shows the requirements for "Mixing and Analyzing the Breathing Gas"

I haven't looked at this in depth, with all the subparts and mumbo jumbo. Maybe it applies...

 

[limeyx]

Basically your making my point. They are claiming it's a liability issue but every other shop provides the same thing and has to run the same risks.

Essentially the problem is it takes time and proper training to blend nitrox safely and that is something they are not willing to invest. To claim it's a liability issue is just plain B.S. otherwise everyone else wouldn't offer it.

but s/chalet is "so much more than a dive store"
maybe since they dont want to have to train their ski employees to handle those gases etc.

For a regular dive store you probably have a smaller staff and all dedicated to diving

 

[Frank O]

How can that be a rule? I'm not sure which shops run nitrox around here, but don't Hollywood Divers and Pacific Wildnerness do it? Surely they must teach it as well as fill it, right? And if their instructors are doing it, why don't those two stores have chambers? Are you saying chamber as in "decompression chamber", or something else?

I have to admit I don't know anything beyond the conversation with the Sport Chalet manager I was paraphrasing. I took him to mean a hyperbaric chamber.

When people take nitrox classes through other shops, do the instructors usually dive nitrox as well on the experience dives? I took nitrox with an independent instructor -- I can't remember now, but he may have been on air. Usually when I go to resorts where a lot of the clientele is on nitrox, the DMs seem to usually dive on air. In fact, I can't remember any dive in six years of diving in which someone diving with me in a professional capacity used nitrox. Of course, the vast majority of my dives have been with buddies who, whether or not they're instructors, are diving for fun.

 

[CompuDude]

I know at least a couple of instructors who always dive nitrox when teaching, as it gives them a little extra cushion, given the yo-yo nature of most days in the water for instructors.

I don't know of ANY LDSs that have chambers on site, and they all teach Nitrox, and I'd be stunned if none of them use it themselves. (Is there a difference between "required" and "allowed", perhaps?) I think the Sports Chalet manager you spoke to didn't know his *ss from his elbow in this regards.

 

[Ann Marie]

I think the Sports Chalet manager you spoke to didn't know his *ss from his elbow in this regards.

Sport Chalet is NOT allowing their SCUBA Leadership to dive enriched air while teaching/assisting. Period.

For a dive shop to be able to work under "Alternative Conditions Under 1910.401(a)(3) for Recreational Diving Instructors and Diving Guides (Mandatory) - 1910 Subpart T App C" just some of the things they would have to do is:
-have each employee diving EAN have a pony bottle while diving
-have O2 @ the site
-have 2 people trained in first aid and O2 delivery
-maintain divelogs in the dive store (not just the employee but the store)
-verify that dive computers are set properly (not just the employee but the store)
There are a lot of other standards that an employer would have to meet to be able to use that alernative conditions. Not going to happen.

Lets see, which is easier for OSHA to go after and fine....a small dive shop that probably doesn't have a lot of revenue/employess or a corporation that has thousands of employees and large revenue???

When I took my enriched air with a different agency than PADI, I had to go and do two dives and report back to the instructor. The instructor did not come with me. I did not learn anything about using EAN tables, I learned to set my computer. The PADI EAN course (which I took as well) was much more in-depth.

 

[IceDiverInCA]

When people take nitrox classes through other shops, do the instructors usually dive nitrox as well on the experience dives? I took nitrox with an independent instructor -- I can't remember now, but he may have been on air. Usually when I go to resorts where a lot of the clientele is on nitrox, the DMs seem to usually dive on air. In fact, I can't remember any dive in six years of diving in which someone diving with me in a professional capacity used nitrox. Of course, the vast majority of my dives have been with buddies who, whether or not they're instructors, are diving for fun.

Resort DMs dive on air because they might have to chase those who go deeper than they are supposed to.

 

[rakkis]

you should check with your LDS before doing it through sports chalet. mine is still including the two dives for the same price.

 

[Hollywoodivers]

If you need nitrox fills come and see us. We have been teaching nirox for ten years and filling four 4 years. No need to be o2 clean either. It's for 40 percent or less. Let's go Nitrox diving !

 

[CompuDude]

I think the Sports Chalet manager you spoke to didn't know his *ss from his elbow in this regards.

Sport Chalet is NOT allowing their SCUBA Leadership to dive enriched air while teaching/assisting. Period.

For a dive shop to be able to work under "Alternative Conditions Under 1910.401(a)(3) for Recreational Diving Instructors and Diving Guides (Mandatory) - 1910 Subpart T App C" just some of the things they would have to do is:
-have each employee diving EAN have a pony bottle while diving
-have O2 @ the site
-have 2 people trained in first aid and O2 delivery
-maintain divelogs in the dive store (not just the employee but the store)
-verify that dive computers are set properly (not just the employee but the store)
There are a lot of other standards that an employer would have to meet to be able to use that alernative conditions. Not going to happen.

Lets see, which is easier for OSHA to go after and fine....a small dive shop that probably doesn't have a lot of revenue/employess or a corporation that has thousands of employees and large revenue???

When I took my enriched air with a different agency than PADI, I had to go and do two dives and report back to the instructor. The instructor did not come with me. I did not learn anything about using EAN tables, I learned to set my computer. The PADI EAN course (which I took as well) was much more in-depth.

I think you misunderstood my comment, and are quoting me out of context. I was referring to the manager's assertion that OSHA regs require a chamber onsite:

...the dive shop manager ... said that under Cal OSHA rules, if employees are required to dive nitrox as part of their jobs, you have to have a chamber on-site...

...which is utterly absurd.

Beyond that, I understand their decision. I would decide otherwise in the same circumstances, but it's not my store.

That said, if your list is a true representation of the tough parts of complying with the rules to allow them to dive Nitrox: How tough is it to have a pony bottle? And maintain some dive logs? Please. And keeping your dive computers working properly is a hardship that they consider optional? YIKES!!! And there should be O2 available and people trained on using it anytime there is scuba instruction going on... you mean to say there isn't at Sport Chalet?!?!? If that's the case, I'll certainly never allow my friends to get certified there again.

With the exception of a pony bottle (big f'in deal) and keeping some extra dive logs (again, big whoop), I don't see anything listed in your post that it so difficult that it should disuade them.

 

[Roughwaterjohn]

I think the chamber, as you paraphrased from the dive shop manager, is not the hyperbaric one most divers would assume when we hear that word. If memory serves, to fill nitrox either the pumping / mixing station or the filling tanks need to be enclosed in an explosion proof structure, maybe thats the 'chamber' he mentioned.

I don't have any facts on this, just conversations I've heard over the years concerning a San Diego shop that had some type of explosion while filling nitrox, and the requirement to rebuild their station included some type of structure to contain damage. Of course, that may simply be because they may have screwed up the first time.

Once again, rumours and propaganda only here, no solid facts.

John A.