**Split Fins – Let the Bashing Begin!**

[Barken]

Divers are allowed to wear a color other than black?

No, main color must be black, and it can be outlined with blue or red.

 

[Clammy]

No, main color must be black, and it can be outlined with blue or red.

With the following exceptions:

1) you are a Japanese diver
2) you are playing underwater paintball and are on opposing teams
3) you are the target dummy in the underwater knife fighting specialty
4) you are on your 100th naked dive.

 

[Teamcasa]

absoultely true, as a good swimmer without fins will likely keep up most people in the best fins. nothing will compete with proper training, technique, and fitness

but the question is not truly about speed, I contend that the root of the speed question is actually about efficiency. As with any diver, the amount of work that the individual can generate with their legs is independant of the fin. So the basic hypothesis is that if a diver goes faster in fin A than fin B; then fin A must be the more efficient fin. since the work done by the diver is constant, the difference is how the fin tranlates that work into forward thrust.

So what percentage of the equation is the fin... well that depends, what is my goal?
1) if I want to go for 30 minutes at 30feet and never go more than 200yards from the boat, then the fin basically doesn't matter
2) if I want to go for a 60min@60' with a AL80 and have to cover 2miles during the swim from the beach and back (common for many of my shore dives). Then the efficiency of the fin matters a lot.

the real question is how do you measure efficiency of a human biomechanical interface and not fall victim to the problems of exercise theory and individual preference. Well, its not easy, as if you let each diver fully acclimate to any one fin prior to testing, then you create a problem of having enough time between test that the individuals fitness, hydration and the hundreds of other factors that can modify your output come into play and skew your test. I only know of 1 test that has taken significant efforts to eliminate these problems and you have to do a FIOA request (that will likely get denied) to get the information, but if they do give it to you please share. This test was conducted at the University of Buffalo in 1992-1993 and the US Navy paid the bill, the test included 200 divers and 15 pairs of fins. All were monitored in a highly controled flume tank with O2 consumption (VO2) among many other variables being measured. But of course nobody wants to believe the limited results that have been released.


edit- richerso thanks for such an intelligent post

Agreed!

I would say that dive depends more on your personal abilities and skill as a diver than the fin. A very efficient fin will certainly help but, are there any really lousy fins made today?

BTW, That’s a dive where a scooter would be appropriate. We make similar shore dives (long surface swims) here in SoCal and many do opt for the aid of a machine.

 

[richerso]

You never apologize for annoying us...

I never apologize for annoyingyou ZzzKing . . . . . . because I enjoy annoying you :mooner:

 

[meesier42]

Agreed!

I would say that dive depends more on your personal abilities and skill as a diver than the fin. A very efficient fin will certainly help but, are there any really lousy fins made today?

A very long dive like that is tough for most divers and skill and ability is critical, but the point is that a good fin will make a hard (or even a moderate) dive easier.

Yes, there are some really bad fins, but they rarely make enough splash that we even notice the really bad ones. Even then, in 90% of diving conditions where you can just relax and enjoy the dive, even the bads ones meet the "good enough" criteria. Its those pesky 10% of the "other" dives when the current suddenly kicks up, or someone gets hurt and you have to tow them through the 3-4 foot surf, or etc... that the really good fins are a big advantage and sometimes the difference in being a memeorable dive and a dive that you do not want to remember.

BTW, That’s a dive where a scooter would be appropriate. We make similar shore dives (long surface swims) here in SoCal and many do opt for the aid of a machine.

as many of you know, I use ForceFins and can not recall ever longing for a scooter, I can think back to a couple of dives that it could have helped on, as I had a "secret" spot about 3/4-1 mile off the Leeward cost of O'ahu, but that is off topic.

 

[richerso]

the real question is how do you measure efficiency of a human biomechanical interface and not fall victim to the problems of exercise theory and individual preference. Well, its not easy, as if you let each diver fully acclimate to any one fin prior to testing, then you create a problem of having enough time between test that the individuals fitness, hydration and the hundreds of other factors that can modify your output come into play and skew your test. I only know of 1 test that has taken significant efforts to eliminate these problems and you have to do a FIOA request (that will likely get denied) to get the information, but if they do give it to you please share. This test was conducted at the University of Buffalo in 1992-1993 and the US Navy paid the bill, the test included 200 divers and 15 pairs of fins. All were monitored in a highly controled flume tank with O2 consumption (VO2) among many other variables being measured. But of course nobody wants to believe the limited results that have been released.


edit- richerso thanks for such an intelligent post

Alert to TeamCasa and Messier and the rest of this thread:
Where is that soap box?

Here we go. First off, let me ask that no one be offended here. This has become an academic question for me. I can answer this question. I have thought about this some now. I can exclude the effects of physical conditioning, muscle strength, exercise theory, acclimation effects and personal preferences. I can even develop results which will be more meaningful, useful, direct, relevant, valid, and more thorough than these nebulous Seals/University of Buffalo results that Messier keeps referring to. And, as an added bonus no FOIA action is required! Note that this is FOIA; not FIOA as I keep seeing it written.

I don't have time to write it all right now. I will have to publish my plans over a series of posts, possibly over 5 or 6 days. Someone nudge me if I forget to start that thread. I will try to type it up this weekend some time. Then maybe I can start posting the plan on Monday.

 

[DepthJunkie]

Can I just add?...my split fins are bigger than yours. Sorry, resume

 

[richerso]

Can I just add?...my split fins are bigger than yours. Sorry, resume

You're gonna DIE ! ! ! !

 

[meesier42]

I can even develop results which will be more meaningful, useful, direct, relevant, valid, and more thorough than these nebulous Seals/University of Buffalo results that Messier keeps referring to.

well that would be impressive, I stand to be amazed.

to clarify
the University of Buffalo study from 1993, included a couple of Navy Divers (not Seals), the Navy Divers were a small number of the 200 divers used, most of the divers were volunteers, not professionals. The volunteers ranged that gamut of little expirience to competitive swimmers. As I understand, that test tooks months to collect all of the information and overcome the individual preferences to obtain valid data, the Navy guys were just not available for that long.

The Navy Seals haven't been involved (openly at least) in any testing that I know of, my point is that they have a choice to use whatever fins they want. Of the ones that I have been lucky enough to work with, a large percentage use FF's. I do not believe this validates any previous testing, just that these guys have the highest demands placed on them of any group of divers that I know of and overwhelmingly they select FFs. Sure they have the advantage that the Navy will buy them whatever they want so price doesn't matter, but they will not compromise on function. Perhaps there is a lesson here beyond test results and the interpretation of test results.

oh, sorry if I confused someone by misstyping FOIA.

 

[Barken]

With the following exceptions:

1) you are a Japanese diver
2) you are playing underwater paintball and are on opposing teams
3) you are the target dummy in the underwater knife fighting specialty
4) you are on your 100th naked dive.

You make a very good point. But the paintball one is....interesting...

And Japanese divers, their gear can't match, it much be a rainbow of colors. Also Japanese divers = divers that wear wetsuits from the 80's.