Spiegal Grove Diving Tax

[Walter]

metridium,

"You think standing on principle is arrogant?"

Some people have no principles and therefore do think so. They totally miss the concept that it might be considered arrogant to make a statement like, "If you don't want to pay the fee (tax) then go some place else that maybe a shaddy operation, or don't dive it at all."

cstreu1026,

"A good portion of the reefs in the keys are dea or dying and the sinking of ships are aimed to help repair the damage that is already done."

Artificial reefs do not repair reef damage. Reefs are damaged primarily by actions taken on land, not by divers.

"If you don't want to pay the fee (tax) then go some place else that maybe a shaddy operation, or don't dive it at all."

If the government institutes a tax I will pay it or dive elsewhere. In the meantime the C of C can ask for donations, but they have no right or authority to charge a fee.

Beachman,

"For your information, there ain't no money to be made in the Keys dive industry."

You are living in a dream world if you buy that.

"and there isn't any money to sink or float most ships"

The Eagle, Duane, Bibb and Spiegel Grove were all funded by dive shops in the Keys as well as other businesses which contributed. The cost of the Spiegel Grove went up because of incompetence.

"Think about the folks in Tavernier that can't even break even with trips north to the Speigel Grove"

They've been making good money for years on trips to the Duane, Bibb and Eagle. If they can't make money on a trip to the Speigel Grove they need to make changes.

"and they also commited to selling an amount of tags each year."

That was their choice.

"what about the shops in Islamorada and Marathon that are losing dive business to Key Largo"

They also lose business to Disney World. Do you have a point?

 

[Beachman]

...the folks that know, know. Those that don't visit dive boards, and occasionally dive.

 

[cstreu1026]

Well I am sure the Florida Keys probably compose their own county within Florida so I am sure if the The Chamber of Commerce wanted to make the fee mandatory they could convince the county to pass a local tax. In which case, it could very well end up a lot more than $10 a year. I think the real issue is that dive operators are misrepresenting the fee, voluntary or otherwise.

Walter wrote, "Artificial reefs do not repair reef damage. Reefs are damaged primarily by actions taken on land, not by divers."

I did not mean that they were meant to repair what we have already destroyed but rahter they provided a suitable habitat for the growth of new reefs.

I do also think it is arrogant to think that the cost of improvements to the attractions that draw divers will not be passed on to the diver. Generally in my experience with business, when it cost more to attract patrons then it is the patrons that end up paying for it. I think it is just a little more obvious when they tell you that you will be paying for the privelage to dive SG. They could have just as easily jacked up the price on all their tours to pay for thsi endevour as well as future ones.

 

[metridium]

cstreu1026 wrote...
I think the real issue is that dive operators are misrepresenting the fee, voluntary or otherwise.

Definitely.

cstreu1026 wrote...
I do also think it is arrogant to think that the cost of improvements to the attractions that draw divers will not be passed on to the diver.

Dunno about arrogance - "economic ignorance" might be a better term - but otherwise I think we're in general agreement on that. Where we disagree is how those costs should be recovered.

 

[Walter]

cstreu1026,

"I am sure the Florida Keys probably compose their own county within Florida"

Monroe County has a large area on the mainland. Of course almost noone lives there..............

Key Largo is one of the largest population centers in the Keys, but it is far from the only one. What the county commission will or will not do is a guess, but a tax would not likely be turned over to a private organization to be used for private purposes.

Cost of improvements are always passed on to consumers. This is not about costs of improvements. This is about raising money through voluntary contributions being misrepresented.

Beachman,

It is very easy to see in which catagory you fit. Thanks for pointing it out to everyone.

 

[SDAnderson]

I just had the opportunity to make my first dive on the Spiegel Grove and came away disappointed...does anyone recognize this dive:

It's the weekend, the sun is shining and the seas are calmish. There are eight (8!) cattle boats loaded with more than 100 (maybe as many as 150, but who can tell) divers moored over the wreck. Air temps are in the mid-80's, the water is only a few degrees cooler. Visibility at the rail is about 50 feet and the current is ripping. Divers are fluttering like kites in the wind from the moorings and the rails and trying desperately to find a calm spot between the eddies on the lee side of the wreck. Every so often a sausage pops to the surface, public notice that some poor sod got blown off the wreck or the line; the indignant bleating of the DiveAlerts sounds like a pod of seasick dolphins. The Captains are on their radios arranging to swap divers that came up the wrong line as though it was some kind of nightmare fantasy league bidding war - I'll trade you your two divers for my diver, but you also gotta take one of his divers. Meanwhile, circling like hyenas at a lion kill, there are half-a-dozen private boats just waiting to snag the first available ball...

It's a really big wreck. REALLY big. On days when the vis is good and the currents slow down, it's not a bad dive. On other days, intermediate divers will be in over their head, if you'll excuse the pun. It won't be a great dive until the sea has time to colonize it, in the meantime there are a lot of other, better, safer wrecks in the area to dive.

I made my "donation." For value received, it was no bargain.

Steven

 

[Fred Brown]

Thanks Steven - your post confirmed what I suspected. I'll wait a few years before I dive the Spiegel Grove.

Fred

 

[mrwinc]

Earlier this year when I dove the SG that situation was about right. We didn't have any extra boats circling for buoys though. Luckily none of the folks on the cattle boat I was on got blown off the wreck. I can say that the 2 buddies I was with almost did get blown off. We were going from the side without any current to the side that was and as we went of the top of the of an area we got hit head on. 1 of my buddies and me were able to grab on quickly. The third that was with us was a 70 pound little lady. We both grabbed her wrists and pulled her to the hand rail. We couldn't go back the way we came since the current would both move us horizontal and vertically up. Luckily there are tie off ALL over that boat. The little lady couldn't reach one of the tie offs from the hand rail. I never though I'd be handling someone like baggage to another person. Wrists and Ankles work great if they stay calm and keep their frame.

Flapping like a flag does suck for the 20 or so minutes ya hang around.

We went to the Duane the next day. The current was JUST as strong. No one was there when we arrived. When we left however a second boat was there and some peeps went up on the wrong boat.

The SG was the largest thing I've seen underwater so far. Impressive