Spiegal Grove Diving Tax

[mrwinc]

If you never want to buy the medallion again then buy the 'lifetime' one for $250

The sinking of SG isn't soley about diving or how to screw people (divers) out of money. It is a ARTIFICIAL REEF!!!! I think everyone is forgetting why we all dive in the ocean... the wildlife..... I don't know of many places that people like diving that is nothing but sandy bottom and nothing alive or to see for miles.

Then again if we PAVE the ocean floor and kill all life in it then IMAGINE the vis. W00t 200 to 300 feet visibility at ALL times!!!!! Nothing to see but barren wrecks and bridge spans but the visibility... W00t!!!!

 

[thethumper]

reefraff once bubbled...
So, let's rephrase the question and see if that helps facilitate the conversation:

Is it acceptable policy that private business (the Keys Chamber of Commerce and its ancillary dive shops) gets to develop (sinking the Speigel Grove) a public facility (the Keys National Marine Sanctuary) for private commercial purpose (selling dive charters) and to fund that development by requiring payment of a "voluntary fee" (the dive medallion) by the public in order to access that public facility?

Remember, this is a public facility. Essentially at the request of the residents of the Keys, the U.S. Congress stepped in 20-ish years ago and took over the administration of the area because the State of Florida and the Keys themselves were unable to manage the resource on their own. That means that everyone (all U.S. citizens) has a say in how the facility is used.

The dive medallion may not qualify as a tax, but that's pretty much a technical argument. De jure or de facto, it's still a tax, or at least close enough to warrant the argument. Those who would split hairs and hide behind semantics diminish their credibility. Better to focus the discussion on the advisability and propriety of the tax, lest you become the butt of ridicule, a la Bill Clinton.

I don't like the idea of taxes - keep your hands out of my pockets, please. I especially don't like taxes that go to pay for development of public facilities. It's even worse when that development is intended to generate profits for private enterprise. Combine all three, when it's a tax that pays for development of public facilities for private profit, and I become truly aggravated. Arguing "but it's only a little tax" is salt in the wound. As an aside, although the fee was implemented to pay for the sinking of the Speigel Grove, does anyone think it will be eliminated once that goal has been achieved?

Steven

It's still a !@#$$@# tax, but it's also an investment that pays a lot of dividends. Even if a dive trip to Florida isn't in your plans, it's still possible to kick a few dollars into the kitty.

I live in Fl & I dove the GoveLabor Day weekend. I didn't have to pay the $10 fee, but push come to shove... I would have. If they had don't it right the 1st time, it would be paid off a bit faster.

By the way Steve...... Spoken like a True Land Shark......:shark:

 

[Walter]

Philip,

"to create an artificial reef in a National Marine Sanctuary is not a right, it’s a privilege."

You are correct, this is not a right. Permits were approved and funds were raised through donations. I'm in favor of raising funds through donations for artificial reefs, in the Keys and elsewhere. Ask me to contribute and I will (I have). Tell me I have to pay when you have no legal authority and I will not.

"to dive that artificial reef is not a right, it’s a privilege."

You are mistaken. No private entity has any authority to restrict anyone's access (diving or otherwise) to public property.

 

[metridium]

reefraff wrote
a very good summary!

Thanks, Reefraff!

 

[bristolxyz]

Walter,

I fully support the fee or whatever you want to call it, voluntary or not. I see your point, but as a diver, do you think it is justified? I would gladly pay it EACH time I dive it, even form a pvt boat.
What gives..? Do you have any eco projects in Calif that charge a fee? State parks? Etc..?

 

[Walter]

I support it on a voluntary basis too and I'd gladly contribute to it as well. The "or not" is where I take issue. This is a voluntary contribution organized by the chamber of commerce. They have no authority to make it mandatory. They freely admit this, yet it is presented as mandatory. Give everyone the opportuntity to voluntarily contribute, I doubt many would decline.

As for projects in California, I really have no clue. California is on my list of places I'd like to dive, someday I'll make the trek and dive those kelp forests.

 

[cstreu1026]

After reading everyone's replies on this isue I am simply amazed at how errogant the citizens of this country have become. Any diving you do is a privelage and not a right. If i were reading corectly, the SG is was sunk in a marine sanctuary and our government help to finance this project. We should all be thankful that there are people out there who want to promote projects like that. One person mentioned that we shouldn't be destroying the natural buety of the deep. Well if mankind would stay out of the ocean there wouldn't be a need for such projects. A good portion of the reefs in the keys are dea or dying and the sinking of ships are aimed to help repair the damage that is already done. Dives who arrive in Bonaire are required to buy a permit to dive the marine sanctuary there (the entire island in this case) and are also required to participate in a check out dive to besure your skills are up to par so that you will not destry the reef. Atleast the keys dive operators aren't asking to see how good your bouyancy control is. I would rather pay the $10 up front for the tag, than have dive opts add it into their fees without explination. Of course some people are probably not presenting it in the best light, but it is going towards a good cause. And to the people who will throw a fit when it comes time to pay for your dive charter, you are part of the reason customer service in this nation has become so terrible.

Bottom line: If you don't want to pay the fee (tax) then go some place else that maybe a shaddy operation, or don't dive it at all.

 

[metridium]

cstreu1026 wrote...
After reading everyone's replies on this isue I am simply amazed at how errogant the citizens of this country have become.

You think standing on principle is arrogant? Excuse me?

cstreu1026 wrote...
Any diving you do is a privelage and not a right. If i were reading corectly, the SG is was sunk in a marine sanctuary and our government help to finance this project.

The Key Largo Chamber of Commerce is no government I'd ever recognize.

cstreu1026 wrote...
We should all be thankful that there are people out there who want to promote projects like that.

That's true. But remember they're doing this for their potential financial gain, and I firmly believe that potential gain should be commensurate with the potential risks. They want the increased revenues and profits from attracting more divers to the keys AND they want us to pay for their cost of doing so. IMHO, the cost should be paid out of that expanding revenue pie, not from a subsidy.

cstreu1026 wrote...
I would rather pay the $10 up front for the tag, than have dive opts add it into their fees without explination.

I say add it into the basic cost, and let the free market decide if it's justified.

cstreu1026 wrote...
Dives who arrive in Bonaire are required to buy a permit to dive the marine sanctuary there (the entire island in this case)...

Bonairean law is no more applicable here than American law in Bonaire.

cstreu1026 wrote...
And to the people who will throw a fit when it comes time to pay for your dive charter, you are part of the reason customer service in this nation has become so terrible.

How do you figure? You mean by not bending over for every junk fee that passes our way?

cstreu1026 wrote...
Bottom line: If you don't want to pay the fee (tax) then go some place else that maybe a shaddy operation, or don't dive it at all.

or find a dive shop that considers the fee to be voluntary (in which case I'd urge you to donate what you feel is appropriate) or dive from a private boat or borrow someone else's medallion.

 

[Beachman]

Metridium.....or did you just read the last post or so before you philosophised?

For your information, there ain't no money to be made in the Keys dive industry. It's so competirive that every nickle sqeaks...and there isn't any money to sink or float most ships....dive boats or wrecks.

Give 'em a break. Think about the folks in Tavernier that can't even break even with trips north to the Speigel Grove, but have to go for their regular customers....and they also commited to selling an amount of tags each year.

And then, what about the shops in Islamorada and Marathon that are losing dive business to Key Largo because they won't go into their pocket that far to please customers.

Get real.........

 

[metridium]

Beachman wrote...
Metridium.....or did you just read the last post or so before you philosophised?

If you'd read the entire thread, you'd see multiple posts on my part there.

Beachman wrote...
For your information, there ain't no money to be made in the Keys dive industry. It's so competirive that every nickle sqeaks...and there isn't any money to sink or float most ships....dive boats or wrecks.

Sources? Even if that's true, does that justify misrepresenting the voluntary donation as a mandatory fee (tax)?

Beachman wrote...
Give 'em a break. Think about the folks in Tavernier that can't even break even with trips north to the Speigel Grove, but have to go for their regular customers....and they also commited to selling an amount of tags each year.

So I'm obligated to subsidize someone else's questionable business decisions now? Have we been teleported to France or something?

Beachman wrote...
And then, what about the shops in Islamorada and Marathon that are losing dive business to Key Largo because they won't go into their pocket that far to please customers.

What do they have to do with this discussion at all?