SPG placement

[gsk3]

No worries. Have you tried contacting any of the DIR Ontario folks and maybe traveling there for a trip? They're friendly and welcoming, and I'm sure would be happy to answer any questions you have. Some things are just easier to explain in person when you can show how it works.

 

[wrybosome]

3- My understanding of a Pony bottle was that it was used in case of an primary backgas failure, the pony would be used as a backup.

This is in fact how I use it. Not that that has any DIR relevance. Thanks for your input too, Seraphim.

 

[gsk3]

This is in fact how I use it. Not that that has any DIR relevance. Thanks for your input too, Seraphim.

My post on this was lost to the ether, but basically there's really no such thing as a "DIR pony bottle". OOA is avoided by:
1) Proper gas planning and monitoring
2) Team gas supplies
3) Doubles, if the dive calls for them

A bottle clipped off on the left is either a stage or a deco bottle. If it's a stage, it gets breathed first. Others with a better understanding than I may chime in on this, but my justification for this is that you've got a whole lot more options for managing gas on your back than you do in a side bottle (two second stages, two first stages, isolator). If your reserve gas is all in your pony and your teammate needs to share it, you've got a long buddy breath to the surface ahead of you, on a fairly short hose. If the reg free-flows, you've got a long trip to the surface cracking the valve open/closed the whole time. And your inflator now doesn't work either.

 

[Gareth]

The configuration cannot be viewed on it's own, it must be examined in the light of the skills and approach to diving that is the DIR system. One does not really make sense without the other. Move the SPG, and now some of the drills that we teach need to be done slightly differently. I once saw someone really struggling to do an unconscious diver recovery drill because part of that drill is checking the victim's gas. The "victim" had moved the SPG and this confused the hell out of the diver. This was a good example of how a small change which might seem insignificant has a larger effect when viewed in the context of the whole system. I've also had to help a team mate re-arrange their stage bottles countless times, and never once had to think about where something gets clipped off, because we all dive the same system.

You also have to remember that the SPG is part of a bigger system. I know my breathing rate when I'm not stressed. I know my depth. So the SPG fulfills a function of being a backup for my brain. I don't check it to see how much gas I have left, I check it to make sure it says what I think it should say. That's a subtle difference, but an important one. It's the difference between needing it in your face and readily accesible at any point, and checking it maybe three times during the dive and not being fussed if it takes thirty seconds to look and put away. I check my SPG at the bottom of the shotline, maybe once during the dive, and then just before I hit minimum gas. If cylinder size X lasts me 30 minutes at 50 metres for the last ten dives, then it's not suddenly going to be ten minutes unless I am hugely stressed.

The DIR / GUe equipment configuration is a standard. We all recognise that there is huge benefit in having a standard, and so sometimes the answer is "because it's the standard". Once you start picking holes in the standard, all the advantages start to become diluted. Will you burst into flames if you put the SPG on the chest D ring. I doubt it. Will you be diving DIR. No. Now you have to explain why your configuration is different to every DIR diver you meet, and they have to remember that. which totally defeats the purpose of the system. so you have to then ask yourself - what huge advantage does moving it give me that overrides all the benefits of diving a standard configuration, or perhaps more to the point "what is the barrier stopping me from adopting this one small element of the configuration and gaining all the benefit of a standardised system"

 

[Cave Diver]

Something else that I haven't seen mentioned is that backup lights are typically located on your chest d-ring as well. So even though your hip and chest d-ring will have equal clips from having stages clipped off, the backup light adds one more clip to your chest. Add an SPG and now you have 2 more clips on your chest. Leave it on your hip and you've got 1 extra chest, 1 extra hip in addition to your stages.

Also, the muscle memory for finding your hip ring and unclipping SPG will help when you start adding stages to be able to locate and unclip them more easily.

 

[HenrikBP]

2- After reading through the post I think I may need a larger boltsnap, I can put a finger through if I have no gloves on.

Bolt snap sizes are tricky, in that for the standard sizes only the ring size changes, not the snap size:

#66

I uses a 1" bolt snap on my SPG. The 1" ring is large enough that I can get my ring finger through, even with dry gloves and liners. I then pinch the hose between my ring finger and pinkie, secure the "body" of the snap with my middle finger (just curl the finger around the body), and activate the gate with my thumb. That leaves my index finger free to locate (by feel) the D-ring, pull it upright if it has "flopped" down, and re-clip the SPG.

I also do not move my thumb from the gate, and mostly keep the snap open when I check the SPG, so there is no "searching" or other rearranging of fingers and snap when I go to clip the SPG back.

Henrik

 

[rjack321]

Bolt snap sizes are tricky, in that for the standard sizes only the ring size changes, not the snap size:

#66

I uses a 1" bolt snap on my SPG. The 1" ring is large enough that I can get my ring finger through, even with dry gloves and liners. I then pinch the hose between my ring finger and pinkie, secure the "body" of the snap with my middle finger (just curl the finger around the body), and activate the gate with my thumb. That leaves my index finger free to locate (by feel) the D-ring, pull it upright if it has "flopped" down, and re-clip the SPG.

I also do not move my thumb from the gate, and mostly keep the snap open when I check the SPG, so there is no "searching" or other rearranging of fingers and snap when I go to clip the SPG back.

Henrik

Henrik, down the road, if you add stages or a leash you may want to try a smaller SPG snap like 3/4" or 5/8" . As you learn to manage the extra clips back there the smaller ring sizes on the SPG with 1" ring sizes on the stages are a big help in avoiding cross clipping and general CF factor.

You want to avoid the really big rings as much as possible 1-1/4" I think those are called. The oversized hook parts of those will grab multiple items at once and make a mess.

 

[gsk3]

Bolt snap sizes are tricky, in that for the standard sizes only the ring size changes, not the snap size:

#66

Henrik, that picture is awesome (and so like you!).

 

[limeyx]

I'm sorry looks like I posted in the wrong forum.

2- After reading through the post I think I may need a larger boltsnap, I can put a finger through if I have no gloves on.

This is fairly common thinking, but I (and others) found it not to be true.
I did move to a bigger boltsnap for a while (when I went to drygloves) but found it completely un-necessary and actually harder to operate.

Generally I dont need to put my finger in the snap for an SPG (unlike a deco/stage bottle) and I found small is just fine (within reason --- there needs to be room for your hand to grab the SPG)

If you are interested, maybe try to have someone that's taken DIR training show you how they clip/unclip --- there are some easy ways, but I think easier demonstrated than described.

 

[HenrikBP]

Henrik, down the road, if you add stages or a leash you may want to try a smaller SPG snap like 3/4" or 5/8" . As you learn to manage the extra clips back there the smaller ring sizes on the SPG with 1" ring sizes on the stages are a big help in avoiding cross clipping and general CF factor

Thanks rjack; I'll give it a try. I'm taking Tech 1 next week and have been struggling quite a bit with a stage during practice sessions. I really like the "finger-through-ring" approach to snapping, but just with my little bit of practice I can see it getting quite crowded back there with several bigger snaps.

If I go with a snap where I can't get a finger through the ring anyway, I guess the size of my hands would determine what size is a better fit.

In my defense though, I started out with a big honkin' brass butterfly snap years ago, so there has been progress

Henrik, that picture is awesome (and so like you!).

Thanks Ari - yeah, it's very much like me to get just a bit too caught up in those details But it was useful to me to visualize the differences when settling on bolt snap sizes. Of course, now rjack goes and tells me I need to buy the in-between sizes again - I'd just settled on just using 1" and 3/8" #00 for everything

Henrik