sorry for this post

[mania]

The issue being discussed in this thread is current, important and topical. Unfortunately, the topic is also inflammatory and potentially divisive. Especially because it started out as a semi-dive related discussion, the I would like to let it continue and I'm not planning so far to close it or pull it. Yet. Amongst all the Moderators, I will be first among equals in managing this thread, so you can address your concerns to me, if you like. A reminder of some of the basic "rules of the road" are in order for those of you who choose to participate:

Stay calm. If you find yourself becoming angry, step back and take a breath. It will help you think more clearly.

Listen first, talk second. You should be as interested in learning as in teaching and learning can't happen with your mouth open.

Be respectful. Calling people (or positions) names may feel good but doesn't help win battles over ideas.

Avoid cliches and obfuscations. Your ability to think and express yourself clearly and individually are more valuable than seeing how many hot-button phrases you can gather or how you can muddy the water.

Remember the TOS. The Moderators don't become more tolerant of violations of the TOS because it's a hot issue, we become less tolerant. If you post a comment that violates the TOS, it will not be edited. Instead, it will be pulled and you will be asked to stay out of the conversation from that point forward. If your post is far enough over the line, you may find your ability to participate in any conversation on the board prohibited, either temporarily or permanently.

Mania

 

[MadisonK]

In all of the local papers here in Boston there are articles about what a terrorist attack on the LNG (liquified natural gas) tanker would do to the city and its surrounding neighbors. It would be worse than the trade center attacks most likely.

We are "suppose" to be on the lookout for anything out of the ordinary. Two twin Arab freedivers, diving wet in very cold conditions, diving for fish you can't spear legally because of size restrictions, diving for one species that doesn't live on Cape Ann amount to something out of the "ordinary" for this time and place.

I'm not going to apologize anymore about this. I recognize the divisiveness of this issue. The very last thing that I want to do is cause unnecessary trouble for ordinary Americans or even visitors from other countries. Actually its the second to the last thing, the last thing would be to feel the burden of having asked no questions when I should have.

Those that are critical of my approach should recognize and applaude me for having asked the question here where your knowledge of local waters and this sport might be able to give me the feedback I need before I call the authorities and possibly interupt the lives of these two men. Some of you were thoughtful in your responses and have made me comfortable with not taking this further. To the others, shame on you for not be open to this approach.

 

[Spectre]

We are "suppose" to be on the lookout for anything out of the ordinary. Two twin Arab freedivers, diving wet in very cold conditions, diving for fish you can't spear legally because of size restrictions, diving for one species that doesn't live on Cape Ann amount to something out of the "ordinary" for this time and place.

Let me ask something... maybe it's been asked before. Woudl you have been concerned if they were white?

Let's step through this whole thing:

1) Cold: When I dove wet, I had dives in 36 degree water in the spring. The water is about 2 months behind the air; so I'd guess the water in november was somewhere between 45-50 degrees.

2) Fish Types: Which species doesn't live on Cape Ann? Commercial fisherman refer to Black Sea Bass as Rock Bass; Hell, even the DMF states that in their description of the black bass. Bluefish? Yea, good friggin' luck spearing one, but that doesn't mean they aren't around. Cod? Hell, Cod would be cake to spear; it's just a matter of trying to get them out from under the rock once you spear them.

So what I'm asking is... step back and think honestly. Would you have been concerned if they were white?

 

[Uncle Pug]

But... but... the Govment wants us to be its eyes, ears and noses... to sniff out all the evil doers. If we don't we can't be safe! It doesn't matter what color their skin is... anyone could be a terrorist! Only the Govment can be trusted... everyone else is suspect. Warnings must be heeded, the ever present threat is upon us. Thankfully our Govment is watching out for us and giving us these warnings of terror. Don't you feel threatened? Don't you feel the terror? You have the responsibility to report even your slightest suspicion. If anything happens it will be your fault if you didn't report it in time for the Govment to protect us. Please, please... do your duty and report everything to the Govment whether you think it is important or not. The Govment will decide if it is important informantation or not. The Govment now has the power to protect us but it needs you to be its eyes, ears and noses.

 

[MadisonK]

Let me ask something... maybe it's been asked before. Woudl you have been concerned if they were white?

Let's step through this whole thing:

1) Cold: When I dove wet, I had dives in 36 degree water in the spring. The water is about 2 months behind the air; so I'd guess the water in november was somewhere between 45-50 degrees.

2) Fish Types: Which species doesn't live on Cape Ann? Commercial fisherman refer to Black Sea Bass as Rock Bass; Hell, even the DMF states that in their description of the black bass. Bluefish? Yea, good friggin' luck spearing one, but that doesn't mean they aren't around. Cod? Hell, Cod would be cake to spear; it's just a matter of trying to get them out from under the rock once you spear them.

So what I'm asking is... step back and think honestly. Would you have been concerned if they were white?

Absolutely NOT -

Your point about the cold is fair, your point about the fish is less fair. Cod and stripers have a size limit imposed so you can't shoot them less you get them out of the water and discover they are not of legal size. Also, ever see a Cod close to shore? I haven't.

I get the "racism" argument, I really do. When you have several different things that add up to something slightly out of the ordinary it's fair to ask the question in my opinion.

 

[jonnythan]

But... but... the Govment wants us to be its eyes, ears and noses... to sniff out all the evil doers. If we don't we can't be safe! It doesn't matter what color their skin is... anyone could be a terrorist! Only the Govment can be trusted... everyone else is suspect. Warnings must be heeded, the ever present threat is upon us. Thankfully our Govment is watching out for us and giving us these warnings of terror. Don't you feel threatened? Don't you feel the terror? You have the responsibility to report even your slightest suspicion. If anything happens it will be your fault if you didn't report it in time for the Govment to protect us. Please, please... do your duty and report everything to the Govment whether you think it is important or not. The Govment will decide if it is important informantation or not. The Govment now has the power to protect us but it needs you to be its eyes, ears and noses.

Nice speech, Goebbels

 

[Spectre]

Cod and stripers have a size limit imposed so you can't shoot them less you get them out of the water and discover they are not of legal size. Also, ever see a Cod close to shore? I haven't.

Yes. I've seen Cod at Cathedral and other sites. Look under some of the huge boulders at Cathedral and occasionally you'll find yourself nose to nose with a huge face with those distinct barbells on the chin.

Now I've known stripers can't be speared. If they were spearing striped bass, the first question I would research is if the 'hook and line only' restriction on Striped Bass is commercial only, or does it apply to recreational as well [as I've always assumed, but perhaps these guys knew better].

Now there are -not- 'hook and line only' restrictions on Black Bass, nor Cod, nor Blues. Actually I'm surprised to see that they've finally lifted the size restrictions on Blues. I have extremely limited knowledge of spearfishing all together; so let me stick with something I know. Tautag. Tautag have size restrictions, and a lot of people spear Tautag. There is no spearing restrictions on tautag [aside of the posession limit and size limit].

From what I understand, there are a ton of fish that have size limitations. I don't spearfish, so I don't know how the spearfisherman makes sure that the fish is big enough; but it's something they -all- have to deal with.

I'm sure it's a lot like lobstering. I'm burnt out of lobsters, one or two a season is enough for me, and the rest I give away. So my dives aren't lobster dives; they are dives where I'll take a lobster if I happen upon one. If he's too small, I don't even bother. I don't even carry a size gauge with me; I get the gauge out of my car when I get back there. Yea, there's a size limit on lobsters; but when I grab them, I don't grab ones that are of questionable size. I'm sure the spearfishers use the same type of judgement... but I dunno.

 

[RIOceanographer]

I am with the people who don't see anything suspicious here, and I think others have explained my feelings on the matter pretty well so I won't bother to restate their arguments.

However, to those who suggest just reporting things like this to the USCG or FBI when in doubt and letting them worry about it, I must disagree. The various law enforcement authorities get an unbelievable number of reports of suspicious acts. Far more than they can really investigate. People need to use some judgment and common sense before they report things so that law enforcement folks don't need to waste valuable time and resources checking out an endless stream of false alarms. Every false alarm they get takes valuable resources away from the real threats.

 

[MSilvia]

Yes. I've seen Cod at Cathedral and other sites.

Me too... well, at Cathedral anyhow.

I'm sure the spearfishers use the same type of judgement... but I dunno.

When I spear flounder, I have tape marks on my spear that mark out the largest legal minimum for a flounder species. If a fish isn't obviously larger, I don't take it. After a dozen hunts, you get to know the keepers without looking at the stick, and you don't take the small ones.

 

[RIOceanographer]

Absolutely NOT -

Your point about the cold is fair, your point about the fish is less fair. Cod and stripers have a size limit imposed so you can't shoot them less you get them out of the water and discover they are not of legal size. Also, ever see a Cod close to shore? I haven't.

I get the "racism" argument, I really do. When you have several different things that add up to something slightly out of the ordinary it's fair to ask the question in my opinion.

You are mistaken about the spearing rules. Of the fish mentioned, only the stripers cannot be speared in MA. The others (black sea bass, cod etc.) are fair game subject to size restrictions and possession limits. Having a size restriction doesn't mean you cannot spear it, it just means you better be sure it is big enough before you shoot.

Read the rules for yourself if you like:
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dmf/publications/diver_abstract_080304.pdf

Also I have seen cod at Cathedral as well so I can verify what Jeff and Matt said.