Solo cert when already tech certified

[Wibble]

My recreational CCR certification is for closed-circuit pure oxygen rebreathers (ARO) to a max depth of 10 meters.
Not only we were not using a bailout, but it was considered a bad, dangerous practice to carry an air tank. This was due to the bad habit of ARO divers of getting some air from the air tank for using it as a "diluent" and being able to dive deeper than 10 m.
This caused a number of deaths back in the sixties, so the usage of an air tank together with an ARO unit was substantially forbidden in our training.

Thank you for explaining this.

Oxygen rebreathers are extremely rare in comparison with "modern" rebreathers with oxygen sensors and breathable diluent which do not have a very shallow limit. For these, including closed-circuit and semi-closed-circuit, whether manual or electronic controlled, the standard method of operation is always have a bailout that is independent of the rebreather loop.

The other mantra when diving closed circuit is always know your PPO2. If the oxygen sensors or controller fails, then it’s a bailout or special procedures such as running it as a semi-closed rebreather using the diluent and regular diluent loop flushes, or operate it as an oxygen rebreather again with regular oxygen loop flushes.

One has to wonder how many people regularly dive oxygen rebreathers compared with standard rebreathers. Probably the same number as dive in old-fashioned "standard dress" with a copper helmet, i.e. virtually nobody. In fact are they even manufactured nowadays?

 

[boulderjohn]

There's a flagrant conflict of interest for the operator to both demand a course and offer that same course. As a good general rule, never take a class/cert from someone demanding you need that cert to do a dive. If you absolutely have to take the course for some reason, take it from someone else.

That seems like quite a strong statement. I see that situation a lot.

• Every dive operator I have experienced requires dive certification for anyone diving with them. Almost all offer that certification.
• All the dive operators I know in South Florida require AOW or higher for deeper NDL dives. They all offer that certification.
• All the dive operators I know that run technical dives require technical diving certification for those dives. They all offer that certification.

So no one should take those classes from those operators?

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

That seems like quite a strong statement. I see that situation a lot.

• Every dive operator I have experienced requires dive certification for anyone diving with them. Almost all offer that certification.
• All the dive operators I know in South Florida require AOW or higher for deeper NDL dives. They all offer that certification.
• All the dive operators I know that run technical dives require technical diving certification for those dives. They all offer that certification.

So no one should take those classes from those operators?

I would agree, depending on the cert in question.

It can be a blatant money grab (yeah, we're on a boat so you need the boat diver and post-dive sno-cone diver cert - that'll be $150 + sno-cone) or offering a great service level for a particular diver (we're gonna be at 100-125 ft for most of our planned dives this week looking at life on the wrecks - you came all the way down here to Floreeda to do this with your friends and I can get Wet Willie, the instructor, to do three adventure dives (buoyancy, boat diver, and night) and by noon of the second day you'll be AOW certified (Willie's navigation adventure and our second planned dive to 100'). [How's THAT for a run-on sentence?!?] If you want, Willie will do another deep dive in the afternoon with you, and the next morning, you go on our 130' with us and get your deep diver cert and never ever have to worry about this question again.

And get to spend the rest of the week and have lots of fun and create memories with your friends! Or you can pay Wet Willie to be your private dive guide all week long poking around at 50 ft with Willie watching what me and your friends are doing down below.

 

[scubadada]

The certification level required for a specific dive is frequently available on the operator's website. If not, it is very easy to email or call to inquire. You can either meet the requirement or look for an operator that does not have it. This is all very simple. There is absolutely no reason to ever be surprised.

I am a recreational diver, the only certs I have ever been asked for in 25 years/2250 dives are nitrox, OW or AOW and Solo. I have used a DPV card just a couple of times to avoid a guided dive prior to renting a DPV.

Getting back to this thread, I am on at @formernuke side regarding the need for a solo cert prior to diving a CCR along with an OC buddy for recreational dives. I have been the OC buddy for a diver on a CCR many times in SE Florida. However, it's the operator's business and the operator's rules.

 

[boulderjohn]

I would agree, depending on the cert in question.

It can be a blatant money grab (yeah, we're on a boat so you need the boat diver and post-dive sno-cone diver cert - that'll be $150 + sno-cone) or offering a great service level for a particular diver (we're gonna be at 100-125 ft for most of our planned dives this week looking at life on the wrecks - you came all the way down here to Floreeda to do this with your friends and I can get Wet Willie, the instructor, to do three adventure dives (buoyancy, boat diver, and night) and by noon of the second day you'll be AOW certified (Willie's navigation adventure and our second planned dive to 100'). [How's THAT for a run-on sentence?!?] If you want, Willie will do another deep dive in the afternoon with you, and the next morning, you go on our 130' with us and get your deep diver cert and never ever have to worry about this question again.

And get to spend the rest of the week and have lots of fun and create memories with your friends! Or you can pay Wet Willie to be your private dive guide all week long poking around at 50 ft with Willie watching what me and your friends are doing down below.

As has been established in other threads, in most cases, the requirement for AOW on deeper NDL dives is frequently dictated by the operator's insurance. One such operator recently copy/pasted the language from his policy. I do not share the compulsion some people on ScubaBoard seem to have with claiming that each and every policy of a dive operation is the result of pure, evil greed on the part of the owner.

 

[Nitrogenius]

Tech training is usually strongly enforcing team operations, cross-checks, etc.

Really depends on the training and agencies and level. Advanced Cave sidemounting for example is a workshop that is mostly aiming at solo approaches only as the thinking behind is, problems occuring in major restrictions likely a buddy will not be able to help anyways, so you will have to solve anything yourself. Also in passages with heavy restrictions another diver might just impose more risk rather than mitigating risk. After all it might be your dive partner that gets stuck and you are behind in the cave.. What now?
Also on a lot of curriculums the further you evolve from AN/DP the focus on self reliance rather increases. Team approaches are always an "add on" to full self reliance. Full self reliance and the proper configurations for that is which are the skills that are taught in a solo class. so there is huge overlap. All that is independent from the point whether it is or isn't a good idea to dive solo. It is only about if you have the proper equipment and skills to bne self reliant and this is taught in any tech class from the getgo.

Solo diving is requiring a completely different approach..

Nope.. See above

So the skills are the same, but they must be available when you are alone, which is not proven by your current certification.

When the skills are only available when you are with a partner and otherwise not, you should also not conduct any technical dive with a aprtner because in my opinion you would then be insufficiently qualified

As said, I have quite good skills (albeit fully recreational, I am not a tech diver),
including deco, twin tanks, max certified depth 50 m and CC rebreathers, but still I do not think to be qualified as a solo diver.

Maybe that is the point, not being trained as tech diver, so lacking the understanding where the similarities are?

That's exactly my catch. Tech and Solo are quite diverging approaches...

They are different in regards to how it makes sense to conduct a dive. For the majority of the advanced dives it still makes sense to rely on team approaches, but the underlying skillsets need to be fully self reliant, so that is where it does not differ at all and where the OP comes from I think

That being said, ALL tech diving ideologies include the concept of “my buddy/team just died…I need to be self reliant enough to attend the funeral”

Not only in regards to separation, but in general the whole approach to technical/Advanced diving is being fully redundant, being able to control and porpoerly use all your gear and hence be fully self reliant any team approach is adding reconfirmations and thus safety to that principle apporach

What failure modes do you mean?

That's what I asked myself as well. Especially as sensors are being mentioned. That is not a topic of actual gen rebreathers.. In fact most actual gen CCRs have been focusing on mitigating the two major failure topics of CCRs as cell failure (adding more cells and actually redundant reading devices) and Hypercapnia (with various monitoring approaches, some with split scrubbers etc. etc.)
So I would be really curious about those failure modes

I am a recreational CCR (ARO) certified diver. Not tech.
When using the CCR in the sea, we never used any bailout tanks. If a problem occurs, you still have some breathable gas in the bag, and considering the very limited depth you can easily ascend.

That's is definitely true. I never exceeded 15 meters on my ARO (of course with some air in the bag, not pure oxygen).

Wow! I strongly suggest to revisit this approach. If you encounter a hypercapnia event you are toast also with a buddy..
I read why it was taught that way but these days this is just purely wrong.
Also "adding some air" to a O2 CCR setup to dive to 15 m is an unsafe approach at least without PO2 monitoring

 

[Angelo Farina]

While it may be true, you have no idea what the other OC divers past training consists of. I highly doubt the boat does either.

I could be on that boat diving OC, having been asked to show a card, I show the one most appropriate for the dives we will be doing. Yet here I am as a mod 2 diver. So your statement that they aren't trained just because they are diving OC is extremely flawed at best, as is the thinking from the operator.

Point is that you cannot rely on other customers skills for providing help to a CCR inexperienced diver. When I was responsible for the diving center in a resort I had the power to say "no" to anything I was considering "not safe enough". So I understand entrely the concern of this diving center, as they see a potential risk, and they want to avoid it as much as possible.
Of course, if instead of a singlke CCR diver they were getting a CCR instructor with his studnet, the situation could be very dofferent, as the the instructor will take the resposnability for the other diver.
but, even in this case, when I was responsible I did never accept that customers carrying an instructr certification could take decisons aginst my own judgeent. If the wanted to dive with us, they had to comply with our safety proecdures, wathever their training and certification. My diving cneter, my resposnability, my rules.
You do not ike them ,please dive with other opperstors.

One has to wonder how many people regularly dive oxygen rebreathers compared with standard rebreathers. In fact are they even manufactured nowadays?

Of course the number declined strongly over years. I last used an ARO in 2010.
Instead here, back in the fifties, 90% of divers did use an Aro. Air tanks started to become popular only in the sixties, but they were bulky, heavy and more expensive. So AROs were continued to be used for training new divers even in the seventies (I was certified in 1975).
It was considered very goid for learning: when you master using an ARO, you can dive with almost any breathing apparatus.
Nowadays they are only used for military applications, where they are still widely employed.
They are being manufactured by companies such as Drager and Siel (formerly OMG).
Here my favourite ARO units, small and light: Rebreathers – Siel

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

Point is that you cannot rely on other customers skills for providing help to a CCR inexperienced diver. When I was responsible for the diving center in a resort I had the power to say "no" to anything I was considering "not safe enough". So I understand entrely the concern of this diving center, as they see a potential risk, and they want to avoid it as much as possible.
Of course, if instead of a singlke CCR diver they were getting a CCR instructor with his studnet, the situation could be very dofferent, as the the instructor will take the resposnability for the other diver.
but, even in this case, when I was responsible I did never accept that customers carrying an instructr certification could take decisons aginst my own judgeent. If the wanted to dive with us, they had to comply with our safety proecdures, wathever their training and certification. My diving cneter, my resposnability, my rules.
You do not ike them ,please dive with other opperstors.

I never once said they couldn't make their own rules which divers would have to abide by. I suggest going back and reading my post again as you didn't really make any statement based off of what I posted.

I am stating that there are options that the operator can explore. Now, as I do not know the operator, they may have explored all of these options already but typically a boat only know what you are certified to do based on the card you show and most divers show the card that is appropriate for the dives they are doing.

Just food for thought.

 

[tomfcrist]

When I was responsible for the diving center in a resort I had the power to say "no" to anything I was considering "not safe enough"

Based off your postings, you really only said no to things you had no understanding of…like technical CCR diving. Your limited experience with O2 rebreathers, and your dated standards of diving CCR with no bailout have clouded your judgement concerning the capabilities of a technical CCR diver. Your insistence in appointing yourself an expert is reminiscent of the Hyperbaric Doc in Malta being an expert on buddy and team responsibilities during a trial…and getting someone convicted based of his “expert” testimony, even though he had never done 1 scuba dive.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Based off your postings, you really only said no to things you had no understanding of…like technical CCR diving. Your limited experience with O2 rebreathers, and your dated standards of diving CCR with no bailout have clouded your judgement concerning the capabilities of a technical CCR diver. Your insistence in appointing yourself an expert is reminiscent of the Hyperbaric Doc in Malta being an expert on buddy and team responsibilities during a trial…and getting someone convicted based of his “expert” testimony, even though he had never done 1 scuba dive.

Of course my experience of technical diving is limited, I am NOT a technical diver, and never claimed to be, despite involving activities which nowadays most consider technical (deco, double tanks, CCR, caves, wrecks). That was exactly my point!
And this means that I would not take the risk about something I do not master.
Probably the situation is the same for the manager of the diving center who requested the solo certification.
Not always the manager of a diving center is a technical diver, nor a technical instructor...
So I fully understand their concern, as "seen from outside" the idea of a CCR diver buddy-paired with a not-technically-trained normal OC diver looks scary.
Probably not so much for the CCR diver, but definitely for the poor guy who is appointed to be his buddy.
So I would avoid entirely the problem, asking the CCR diver to dive solo, solving the buddy problem at its beginning.