So, just who is George Irvine III?????

[danvolker]

I consider myself a "new" diver in that, while I received my OW Cert in 1975, other than the occasional free dive, I have been largely absent from the sport for 30 years. I started diving again last year after taking a refresher course and have sense logged 13 dives, giving me a lifetime total of only ~30. I found the refresher course to be largely useless (other thab giving me time in the pool with equipment) and rely predominantly on information I have been able to find on the internet, in a couple of books and other divers. I have been following this thread out of curiosity and the hope of learning some useful information. I have to say I have learned some things from this thread. One of the interesting things is that it pointed me to a couple of GUE and DIR websites.

I am not at all familiar with the individuals or organizations discussed here and have no real bias from the ancient history. What I have found is that the GUE and DIR websites are a great resource of useful information. I have found it difficult to find really useful information about how to set up and deploy my equipment and why. I understand that some of this is "personal preference" but it is nice to have a starting place that makes sense. Never have cared for people with the attitude "my way is the only right way", but it does give some good perspective.

Thanks for the interesting thread!

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

GLAD you like the thread.... One of the things George wanted to do with DIR and the dissemination of it over the Internet, was to get huge amounts of SELF TEACHING level information out, so that even someone with no access to a DIR Diver, could get deeply into the common sense ideas that make up DIR....This was not about making money from the ideas--neither of us had any stake in any form of instruction or Agency....and this was long before GUE had even been imagined. The best plan is to read as much as you can, though someone should organize a good list of DIR articles.....and then when possible, find a well known DIR Diver to dive with....or a GUE. Most will be very happy to share with recreational divers. GUE's are easy to guage as representitive as good DIR/GUE--there is almost no such thing as a poor GUE diver ( relative to a poor diver in a major agency). Of course , GUE has turned out about .001% of the divers that PADI or NAUI has, so it is not a fair comparison
DIR's can be very good, or can be self taught --which can run from great ---to not-so-great--it depends on the person, and also who they have been diving with. This just means you have to work a little harder in finding the path.

And the DIR forum here should be a great way to run DIR questions to many very good DIR divers, and get great answers. It could even help you find some people to mentor or dive with you, for free, and that was always a big part of being a DIR diver--sharing the good stuff.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Traveler218, you might also find information useful to you on DevonDiver's blog found within his website.

 

[TSandM]

I think it's really important to realize that GUE is not "my way or the highway". Yes, a great many things are standardized -- but for everything that is mandated or recommended, there is a rationale. If you take a class, you have an opportunity to ask the instructor the "why" of how things are set up, and how they are done, and what the choices are, and there is ALWAYS a good reason. Sometimes it's just that there are several equally good ways to do something, and they wanted to choose one so that everyone would be on the same page. But even so, it is a reason.

I often get the feeling that people who have no or limited familiarity with the system think that you just get issued a rulebook and told to follow it. Nothing could be further from the truth. The goal of GUE (and UTD, I suspect, as well) is to create THINKING divers, who have adopted the system because they have thought about it and decided it works for them.
.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I have had both good and not so good training prior to taking Fundamentals.
Going forward, I wanted a solid training foundation, and then go from there.

I certainly didn't base my decision on negative posts.

I wanted to make sure I wasn't the guy without a chair when the music stopped.

Consider the totality of what you read here. GUE was a good step for me. ;-)

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Even one of my zealous DIR buddies found it ridiculous . . . I have simply made a decision that taking the time to check before going underwater is better than fixing something when I get there -- or, as my husband says from personal experience, "Nothing gets better IN the water."

Dale, you nailed it. I went from an OW education that was at best marginal, to amazement that there was SO much I hadn't been taught (and gratitude for the folks who taught it to me) to an awareness that there are many roads to a good diving education and good diving skills. Today, I know that the buoyancy, trim and non-silting propulsion I learned OUGHT to be pretty standard in any cave curriculum (but aren't); or any technical curriculum (but aren't). Some of the best divers I've dived with (Charlie99) have no exposure to either GUE or caves. One of my favorite cave diving buddies (Ben M) had only a little GUE instruction, and doesn't dive DIR (sidemount, when he can).

At the other end (I think) of the educational tunnel, with a Full Cave cert and a tech cert and a PADI DM cert, I have this to say: I am still enormously grateful to GUE, for creating extremely well trained and skilled instructors, and a community of amazing divers, who for some reason are some of the most giving and patient and supportive folks out there. I am grateful for a world of similarly trained people, to whom I can reach out if I travel, and ensure myself safe and enjoyable dive buddies almost anywhere I might want to go. I am grateful, especially when I cave dive, for an uncompromising education that has been a challenge to which I have not always been able to rise -- but even in failure, I have learned what the goal IS, and that I should strive to get there. I am a better diver for it.

I am not, by nature, an evangelist, nor am I much of a fighter. But in this much I have a mission: I think divers would be happier, and get more out of their diving, if they were more skilled and better trained, and if they had more reliable buddies. In the world where I dive, these things are a given. For this reason, I continue to promulgate this way of diving.

You have been assimilated into the Borg. jk

... the funny thing is that the person who started her down that path isn't even DIR ...

I'm always amazed by what this topic brings out in people ... and how it inevitably ends up going around the same circles. People all dive for their own reasons, choose their their training to satisfy their own needs, and generally attract a circle of dive buddies based on compatible interests and perspectives. We're all tribal ... and we're all unique.

Fact is, the only people who have ever said to me "I won't dive with you" were GUE trained. The only dive club I've ever tried to join who said "we don't want you" had a UE at the end of their name. Conversely, the people who have had the most positive impact on my diving were GUE trained. And other members of that same UE club invite me to go diving with them pretty regularly.

On the other side of that coin, I've had ... more than once ... someone take a look at my rig, decide I must be "one of those damn DIR people" and give me a hard time. Never mind that I'm not diving with them, and maybe only incidentally even involved with their diving ... as in, stuck on the same boat or event together. Should I judge all PADI people by the instructor who calls me a nazi because I believe gas management is important? I think not ... I know too many PADI instructors who believe the same thing.

I dive to relax. I choose my diving friends based on how much I enjoy being around them. I never base it on the agency name on their C-card. Thankfully I live in an area where it's less important than in some I've been to ... and the occasional jerk is easily ignored.

Let's go diving ... I don't really care how many letters are on your c-card, or whether the last one is an E or an I ... as long as you're fun to be around and reasonably compatible, that's pretty much all that matters ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added April 14th, 2013 at 06:14 PM ----------

Seattle GUE divers tend to do MT6 from Cove 1 on a scooter.

... so do lots of non-GUE divers. In fact, the divers who laid the initial line from Cove 1 to the MT6 were not GUE. Lots of folks going out there now are diving Megs and rEvos ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Slamfire]

One of the things George wanted to do with DIR and the dissemination of it over the Internet, was to get huge amounts of SELF TEACHING level information out, so that even someone with no access to a DIR Diver, could get deeply into the common sense ideas that make up DIR...

It's a real pity that the earlier materials you guys produced are getting increasingly harder to get a hold of. I know you still host the DIR 3 video somewhere. But I have not been successful getting a hold of DIR 1 or 2. I think I have an mp3 audio file of DIR 2 somewhere.

You and I talked about how to convince my brother in Florida that setting up double Al80's was a better idea than getting a Poseidon recreational rebreather right after you just got nitrox certified -- this was for the purpose of increasing availability of gas for deeper dives. I did send him DVDs of the DIR 2004 that JJ and GI3 did. At his point in his progression, I think it was much better than telling him go find a GUE instructor and take fundies.

Take the context. He was attracted to the Poseidon rebreather. Why would sending him to do a "starters" class that costs $1K plus (I have no idea of how much it costs) be more attractive. It looks like I would be telling him to take backward steps in his progression, when the rebreather salesperson is telling to go forward into the "latest cutting edge technology" for diving. Salesperson will say he's more than ready. The advice to go to fundies could be taken as "you're not good enough yet, go back to the starting point."

Having access to the DIR 4 disks was an ideal medium for me to convey the true meaning of my message. It's not that I don't think you're good enough yet. It is that I think there is a better way to get more bottom time than to just go buy a recreational rebreather. Here's why. Watch this. Don't get too hung up on whether these guys are 100% correct or not. There are some things I disagree with. But the truth is that there are also many things that extremely useful. I hope you find it useful as well.

The sad thing is that it looks like that kind of information is now increasingly commercialized. Now it looks like you have to sign up for a class or pay a subscription to get access to it. Not that it is not valuable and probably well worth the cost. But now there is an additional level of separation distancing inquisitive new divers from valuable information. Sure, you can go around forums, blogs or websites and probably get more info, but those DIR series were a nice package that collected a lot of very useful info in a focused single place without distractions. No need to comb the internets.

Fact is, the only people who have ever said to me "I won't dive with you" were GUE trained. The only dive club I've ever tried to join who said "we don't want you" had a UE at the end of their name...

I have zero formal DIR training and do not consider myself DIR. I was once called Pseudo-DIR. Still haven't decided if that was a good thing or not. I have considered enrolling in a UTD course just so that I could get access to certain diving endeavours if I ever decide to pursue them. Yes, we are tribal. But wouldn't it be good to be able to access some of the goodies the other tribe has (eg side scanning an entire lake looking for targets)...

 

[Griffo]

What I really don't get is why people are still so caught up with an individual who has, from what I can tell, not posted in over 10 years.

I look at some of the stuff I posted back in the 90's and am totally wishing it would dissapear off the archives. Sadly it will not. But people also don't tend to bring it up try to use it against me.

Time to move on people?

On the GUE front, maybe i'm lucky but i've never met a GUE diver who wasn't extremely humble, helpful, and giving. Every GUE diver i've met has gone out of their way to help me - whether givng me free fills, loaning me gear, teaching me how to service regs, giving me a ride etc, as they are all mad keen divers.

On the other side of that coin, I've had ... more than once ... someone take a look at my rig, decide I must be "one of those damn DIR people" and give me a hard time. Never mind that I'm not diving with them, and maybe only incidentally even involved with their diving ... as in, stuck on the same boat or event together. Should I judge all PADI people by the instructor who calls me a nazi because I believe gas management is important? I think not ... I know too many PADI instructors who believe the same thing.

Ironically I was on a boat the other day with about 30 divers I didn't know. All of them had their Halcyon wings, long hoses, can lights etc etc etc and they were extremely cliquey and exclusive. It looked like a bunch of DIR divers, but they weren't, and not one of them was GUE, they were all variously TDI, ANDI, CDAA etc. Does that mean that that those agencies just turn out not so nice people? Certainly not. Just that I was on a boat full of divers who didn't consider me one of the cool kids.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

On the GUE front, maybe i'm lucky but i've never met a GUE diver who wasn't extremely humble, helpful, and giving. Every GUE diver i've met has gone out of their way to help me - whether givng me free fills, loaning me gear, teaching me how to service regs, giving me a ride etc, as they are all mad keen divers.

That's funny.
Between myself and my other GUE buddies, we have multiple sets of dive gear and loan it out regularly.

We are always taking people out diving, and showing them some secret dive spots. ;-)

We're not doing the LDS rental department any favors by doing this. But it's a great time taking new people out diving!

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[danvolker]

It's a real pity that the earlier materials you guys produced are getting increasingly harder to get a hold of. I know you still host the DIR 3 video somewhere. But I have not been successful getting a hold of DIR 1 or 2. I think I have an mp3 audio file of DIR 2 somewhere.

You and I talked about how to convince my brother in Florida that setting up double Al80's was a better idea than getting a Poseidon recreational rebreather right after you just got nitrox certified -- this was for the purpose of increasing availability of gas for deeper dives. I did send him DVDs of the DIR 2004 that JJ and GI3 did. At his point in his progression, I think it was much better than telling him go find a GUE instructor and take fundies.

Take the context. He was attracted to the Poseidon rebreather. Why would sending him to do a "starters" class that costs $1K plus (I have no idea of how much it costs) be more attractive. It looks like I would be telling him to take backward steps in his progression, when the rebreather salesperson is telling to go forward into the "latest cutting edge technology" for diving. Salesperson will say he's more than ready. The advice to go to fundies could be taken as "you're not good enough yet, go back to the starting point."

Having access to the DIR 4 disks was an ideal medium for me to convey the true meaning of my message. It's not that I don't think you're good enough yet. It is that I think there is a better way to get more bottom time than to just go buy a recreational rebreather. Here's why. Watch this. Don't get too hung up on whether these guys are 100% correct or not. There are some things I disagree with. But the truth is that there are also many things that extremely useful. I hope you find it useful as well.

The sad thing is that it looks like that kind of information is now increasingly commercialized. Now it looks like you have to sign up for a class or pay a subscription to get access to it. Not that it is not valuable and probably well worth the cost. But now there is an additional level of separation distancing inquisitive new divers from valuable information. Sure, you can go around forums, blogs or websites and probably get more info, but those DIR series were a nice package that collected a lot of very useful info in a focused single place without distractions. No need to comb the internets.

I have zero formal DIR training and do not consider myself DIR. I was once called Pseudo-DIR. Still haven't decided if that was a good thing or not. I have considered enrolling in a UTD course just so that I could get access to certain diving endeavours if I ever decide to pursue them. Yes, we are tribal. But wouldn't it be good to be able to access some of the goodies the other tribe has (eg side scanning an entire lake looking for targets)...

I will see if George or Bill have an old DIR 1 or 2 lying around, and if so, I will make an mp4 of it I can put on my Youtube channel to go with DIR 3 ( which is will link here again)
[video=youtube_share;TD4K0SzZijI]http://youtu.be/TD4K0SzZijI[/video]

I have a lot of projects I am working on now, but I will also try to begin putting together more materials like the DIR transcript I put on my Facebook page... https://www.facebook.com/pages/SFDJ/143570335699755?id=143570335699755&sk=app_599788450050788 As you suggested, we should have a free library of all the best DIR material available...not as an "end-all". but as a starting point. With this common sense and base knowledge, all future instruction should be far more effective, whether GUE, PADI, NAUI, or whatever.

 

[chrpai]

That's a good video but there are a few things he says in there that are either a) outdated or b) has been perverted over time. Would be an interesting topic for discussion.