Smoking on a dive boat

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OkByMe, I agree with a lot of what you say. I also agree with you Bob about people stating a point by using their wallets, free enterprise, etc. It hasn't been widely discussed yet about the charter owners simply stating the smoking policy and enforcing it (ahead of time, and before you pay). Ei. This is a non smoking boat. Or, you can smoke but only at the stern. Or, smoking at the stern will still mean some smoke will come back on the boat :So, the rule in this case is you can OR can't smoke at the stern. Seems relatively simple to me. But then again, this sort of idea was legislated away decades ago elsewhere--remember restaurants with "non smoking" areas. There is presently one of the 10 or so Casinos in Biloxi that is completely smoke free. Most have designated areas. I am amazed that this is still legal. Perhaps dive boats and all boats everywhere will someday be legally smoke free only.
 
TMHeimer, I was good with what you said right up until the socialism popped out. You don't impose your will on me. I can agree that smoking in an enclosed area without separate ventilation systems will migrate the smoke to the non smoking areas - that is why I don't smoke in the house and the porch has it's own ventilation. By the way, I have an HVAC expertise, that said, you can partition the areas with separate ventilation and the sheeple will still whine. outdoors is outdoors. You are surrounded in close proximity by millions of cubic feet of air that moves, especially on a boat when it is moving through a horizontal column of air. The PPM of any contamination source is so small as to be immeasurable since it widely dispersed. If you don't believe me, snort some tear gas in a room and then run outside. By the way, I'm retired Military and have some expertise in that too. It is just like adding a little oxygen to the air in a tank. If the air is not moving inside the tank, and the temperature is completely constant, it will eventually disperse throughout the volume of air available just through molecular interaction. Outdoors being outdoors, the volume of air available is planet wide. So once the science is examined rather than the hyperbole, what conclusions can be drawn?
 
OK, so those that oppose smoking have been called Nazis, Sheeple, and Whiners just for verbalizing their right to not have to be forced to share in the unhealthy habit of others. Those in addiction mode never see nor want to believe the damage their addiction is causing to others. When you smoke, you are both physically and psychologically addicted to not just nicotine but other chemicals as well. The majority of smokers want to quit and the average quitter makes approximately 4 attempts before they succeed for good. Some have no intention of quitting and simply enjoy it. It is your right to smoke but it is my right to not have to share in it with you. When we are on a boat together, I am held captive until we are back at the dock. So when you are topside and your ashes and smoke come down and swirl below or you are at the stern and the wind brings it back in to everyone else, you are affecting me directly. Maybe, if smokers had a half an ounce of self discipline and self control and could actually go 4 hours on a 2 tank dive trip we would not be having this debate. The fact is, however, the smoker has an addiction and cannot wait the full 4-5 hours. Just see how irritated and agitated a smoker is if they woke up and had no cigarettes for the day. Just watch their mannerisms and take note.

So go ahead and call us Nazis and Sheeple, we understand because you are an addict.
 
I agree dive boats should be smoke free. Yes, I am liberal and my jewish background prevents me from being a Nazi.

Most of the smokers I know are respectful of others, and on the dive boats I've been on, it hasn't been an issue. Actually I do notice the diesel fumes and my wetsuit to be the most noxious thing on a boat. Safe diving
 
I think we should also give smokers a bit of credit in that, I don't think they would die from a few hours on a dive boat without a cigarette. Some would, yes, but most won't and largely, that won't affect business to the same degree as the entire smoking population.

I can't believe I'm going to compare the two because it's so incredibly stupid but it seems for you all to understand this, it's the comparison I feel needs to be made. If someone releases weaponized toxic aerosol into the air you run for cover because it will kill you. Why is it such a huge reaction when someone who doesn't smoke or isn't used to a smoker, reacts the same in some respect? If it was your right to release weaponized chemical agents would the expected response from the many who don't like it come into question? Even when someone is not smoking, many non-smokers and ex-smokers can smell it on your cloths, depending on the frequency of which one smokes, this can be quite disgusting and nauseating. Aside from such a trivial, small matter that can annoy someone who is in close proximity of others the fact is smoking is harmful and even if the repeated exposure doesn't kill you or give you cancer it makes it hard to breathe. Since I'm a Canadian I'll also include that this makes my taxes go up because I in turn pay for the health care to treat you and your medical issues such as cancer and deal with the long term affects of it. You do too, but to say there's only a few issues and it's no big deal is incorrect. Your choice affects everyone, greatly. Now, while I respect everyone's decision to smoke privately, as it is your right, calling those who have differences Nazi's and other names is silly. If I were a Nazi I'd demand that you took a full shower and changed your clothes into fresh ones from vapour-sealed bags in a decontamination zone so I didn't have to smell the stuff, but because we don't live in socialist hyperbole we can throw that out the window. I guess it's your right to murder someone if the desire hits you, but there's always backlash and consequences, don't be too surprised when people don't share your habit aren't on board with your habit when it affects them. As per boat fumes and other carcinogens, those are things we have a bit less control over because they're harder to fix; they relate little to a thread related to smoking, it's a clever miss-direct to point out other unhealthy features of a boat but it's not under scrutiny. Both smokers, non smokers, crew and everyone around the boat are affected and none of us like it. If we can, we move away or choose options which affect us less. See the correlation?

No, smokers aren't some poison or stain on the world. Most smokers 'accidentally' started socially and because it's addictive find it nigh impossible to stop. My parents are smokers and they're nice people outside of their habit, they're not polite smokers but I do understand those also exist which I've witnessed and appreciate. In fact there are a good quantity of smokers who actually do respect the opinion of the nonsmoker and in some way try and modify their habits, given this is airborne and its harder to escape however, people still have an opinion on it even when the other side is trying. Unfortunately it's easier to complain and focus on the negative than look for small positives. I'm not asking anyone to stop smoking, smoke to your hearts content. I'm addressing the proximity in which it affects me personally, I can't really even speak for non smokers but we all have that in common and there are a few shared opinions. Personally speaking, the same obnoxious arrogance that some smokers have is the same non smokers have when they try and dictate what other people do. It's a personality flaw, not related to the issue. At some point we're going to have to mutually accept that smoking is no longer something many people want to be apart of or around, almost like racism or anything else that we progressively move away from. As time goes on, we'll drag society kicking and screaming from both sides to whatever the future ends up being, we could try smiling at one another in the process and realize we're all human and maybe on a human level we could actually appease each other and not always put our own needs first.
 
Bob you are wrong again "I AM NOT A SMOKER" I dont like it personally. What i like even less is the is the process where one is allowed to dictate what others choices are. The price for thata is accepting that there muct be some compromize at times so that we all can with in reason exercize our choices. Those that promote a ban do not allow for anyones choices but thier own. Whether you or I agree with that choice or not. If this as an issue of banning diving in a lake becaues of a spotted widget on the north side , you would be the first to say,,,, cant we both give a little and only dive on the south side of te lake and not go into the north regons. The widget protectors get what they want and the divers get what they want and both sides get to OCCUPY THE LAKE.

tO QUOTE YOU. It's about choices. ...... As long as those two choices don't conflict, there is no problem. Your position is that your choices superceeds any one elses choices. and you say this when you said ... When your choice to smoke impedes my choice not to smoke, then we have a problem ... because the exercise of your choice removes my ability to exercise mine. The same argument is being made by the smokers. "You non smokers can do what you want so long as it does not conflict with my choice to smoke. Same argument, presented two different ways, both selfish positons to make a stand on. Let me reiterate. I do not smoke i dont like the smoke but i am tolerant of others position's and choices. Unlike the non smokers i am not telling you you have to change your life to accomodate smokers choices. What iam saying is that if you want people to respect your dhoices you have to respect thier's. " And you have to do it by means of not using a stacked deck in your favor. Such as its my way or the highway.



... and I was disappointed that you attempted to politicize a lifestyle choice. In my lifetime I've known many "liberals" who were smokers ... and many "conservatives" who were adamantly anti-smoking. It transcends politics. Suggesting that people who choose not to smoke are "liberals" is absurd, and deserves ridicule.

As for your use of the term "Nazi", that's a clear indication of where you stand ... all subsequent rationalizations notwithstanding. I'm not interested in your rationalizations. It isn't about smell ... geez, I work at a wastewater treatment plant ... smell doesn't bother me. It's about choices. You want to exercise your choice to smoke. I want to exercise my choice not to. As long as those two choices don't conflict, there is no problem. When your choice to smoke impedes my choice not to smoke, then we have a problem ... because the exercise of your choice removes my ability to exercise mine. In a situation where I don't have to breathe your fumes, I don't care what you do. If you light up, I can move away. On a boat, that choice often doesn't exist. Therefore you're forcing me to share your disgusting habit with you ... and imposing your choices on others, whether or not they want it. When your choice to smoke impedes my choice not to smoke, then we have a problem ... is not a way to accompish this.

That's the issue. If you want to use hyperbole, then this issue is more closely related to rape than politics, since it's about exercising control and forcing harm onto someone else so that you can exercise your own selfish desires.



Nope ... it's called free enterprise. Nobody's forcing anybody to do anything in that case. People are voting with their wallet, and merchants are exercising their right to design a program that appeals to the widest available customer base. It has nothing to do with Nazis ... and to suggest it does seriously trivializes what that term means.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
TMHeimer, I was good with what you said right up until the socialism popped out. You don't impose your will on me. I can agree that smoking in an enclosed area without separate ventilation systems will migrate the smoke to the non smoking areas - that is why I don't smoke in the house and the porch has it's own ventilation. By the way, I have an HVAC expertise, that said, you can partition the areas with separate ventilation and the sheeple will still whine. outdoors is outdoors. You are surrounded in close proximity by millions of cubic feet of air that moves, especially on a boat when it is moving through a horizontal column of air. The PPM of any contamination source is so small as to be immeasurable since it widely dispersed. If you don't believe me, snort some tear gas in a room and then run outside. By the way, I'm retired Military and have some expertise in that too. It is just like adding a little oxygen to the air in a tank. If the air is not moving inside the tank, and the temperature is completely constant, it will eventually disperse throughout the volume of air available just through molecular interaction. Outdoors being outdoors, the volume of air available is planet wide. So once the science is examined rather than the hyperbole, what conclusions can be drawn?

Well, though I said I'm no scientist, my gut feeling is that what you say is all true. I'm puzzled about the socialism popping out? Perhaps because I said I'm amazed you can still smoke in casinos or suggest that smoking someday will be banned on all boats? I didn't say I agreed with that, or agree that casinos should be smoke free. I consider myself a conservative on almost everything, especially free enterprise, even with some of it's faults. I do think a socialist approach to two things - health care and education -- is a good thing. Can't think of any others.


261311: Bringing in treatment of sick smokers as a cost to our great medical system has been discussed at length. What about the over-eaters, substance abusers (other than tobacco), couch potatoes? It's just an unending discussion. Then on that past thread, we continued on to seat belts.....People like me who think N.H. gets it right, that there should be no seat belt laws for those of legal age, can't possibly be socialists.
 
Bob you are wrong again "I AM NOT A SMOKER" I dont like it personally. What i like even less is the is the process where one is allowed to dictate what others choices are. The price for thata is accepting that there muct be some compromize at times so that we all can with in reason exercize our choices. Those that promote a ban do not allow for anyones choices but thier own. Whether you or I agree with that choice or not. If this as an issue of banning diving in a lake becaues of a spotted widget on the north side , you would be the first to say,,,, cant we both give a little and only dive on the south side of te lake and not go into the north regons. The widget protectors get what they want and the divers get what they want and both sides get to OCCUPY THE LAKE.

tO QUOTE YOU. It's about choices. ...... As long as those two choices don't conflict, there is no problem. Your position is that your choices superceeds any one elses choices. and you say this when you said ... When your choice to smoke impedes my choice not to smoke, then we have a problem ... because the exercise of your choice removes my ability to exercise mine. The same argument is being made by the smokers. "You non smokers can do what you want so long as it does not conflict with my choice to smoke. Same argument, presented two different ways, both selfish positons to make a stand on. Let me reiterate. I do not smoke i dont like the smoke but i am tolerant of others position's and choices. Unlike the non smokers i am not telling you you have to change your life to accomodate smokers choices. What iam saying is that if you want people to respect your dhoices you have to respect thier's. " And you have to do it by means of not using a stacked deck in your favor. Such as its my way or the highway.


I'm not saying anyone has to change their life either. In fact, I've said repeatedly that as long as you don't force me to breathe it, I don't care what you do.

Courtesy would dictate that a person who wants to smoke does so in a way that doesn't inflict their habit on those who don't want it. But in American society, courtesy seems to be more and more out of fashion ... which creates conflict ... which necessitates laws. We could avoid all of that easily enough ... use a bit of common sense and courtesy.

But I said that already ... many replies ago. As long as smokers insist on their "right" to blow smoke where non-smokers have to breathe it, they'll be facing tougher and tougher restrictions on where they can smoke. But the fact is, they're doing it to themselves ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
The problem with common sense is the fact that its so uncommon..
 
First, I am an avid non-smoker who never smoked, ever. I am a pretty hard core anti-smoker. I just thought I would preface this thread and my post.

For the first time in a very long time I came across a boat where the captain smokes while underway and the divers are allowed to smoke anywhere but under cover(they do anyway). I am not use to divers getting ready for their next dive, placing their equipment on with a cigarette hanging out of their mouth with the smoke going into my face. It is interesting to see them take their cigarettes out just as they put their regulators in and watch the smoke come out of the side ports of their regulator as they drop in the water.

So now while at the dock, there are approximately 2-4 smokers lit up on the boat and the smoke goes everywhere. Many go topside to smoke with the captain while underway and the ashes just fall down onto the rest of us below and while getting ready for our drops during for drift diving, there is constantly smoking going on.

So my question is: How prevalent is this becoming and is anyone aware of any boats that allow this? In recent years, most boats won't even allow you to smoke at the dock, let alone on the boat at all.

Could this explain why the boat is usually empty?
We've had a very similar experience in Bermuda. Most of the staff smoked, the captain (who was the owner of the dive op as well) and most of the divemasters. Luckily, most of them stayed on the upper deck most of the time and spared us of the stench. One of the divemasters though, he was a chain smoker, smoked all the way from the dock to the dive sites and back (and beyond). On the boat, you had the choice of either cigarette smell in your face, or diesel smell, or both. Yuck. There was a toddler on board as well, the captain's child, under the boat's cover but definitely exposed to the smoke. It seems to rub off on the usual costomers of the dive op as well, they had the highest smoker ratio among them of any dive boat that we were on.

Unfortunately there's not much you can do about all that, except not go with that particular dive op the next time you're there. We've seen smokers on dive boats on some other occasions as well, but only maybe one or two of them at a time, and never the staff. As such, it's not too hard to evade the stench, even though I would rather not have to. We haven't encountered a dive boat with a smoking ban yet.
 
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