Smoking on a dive boat

[MXGratefulDiver]

Doc, your story reminds me of a place I used to frequent in New Hampshire, years back. My friends and I were into backpacking. After a few days in the mountains we liked to stop on our way home at this restaurant in North Conway. They had a section reserved for backpackers ... away from all their other patrons. On the other hand, you could smoke anywhere in the restaurant ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[jar546]

As expected, this thread turned into an argument on a few levels, although not that bad. Somewhere, the questions in the OP I made were quietly lost. If I did not preface my OP the way I did, I wonder if the tone here would be the same?

First off, I take extreme offense to the word Nazi being used to describe anti smokers who verbalize their position to protect their health and right to breathe clean air. I think the word Nazi is overkill, inappropriate and a very poor choice considering the history of the word. SB may allow it but that still does not make it appropriate or a good choice.

Secondly, as I eluded to previously, the free market will take care of itself and already has. The result of the free market will vary geographically so what "kills" a business in one area may not in another.

Everyone is passionate about their rights which is why we have arguments. Everyone believes they are right and most positions have valid points; some lack substance and common sense but are driven by the person's belief so they can justify it to themselves.

If I am diving outside of the US, I have already accepted the fact that I will be exposed to more smokers and second hand smoke. It is a personal choice that I have to make. If I am diving in the US, it is my expectation from experience that I will not have to expose myself to other's smoking habits. There are more choices of boats and I can simply call ahead to verify whether or not they allow smoking on the boat. If they do, I tell them that is why I am not booking and that I am not alone.

If a dive charter allows smoking and has built a business based on that fact then more power to them. It is their right to build their business the way they see fit. I applaud their entrepreneur ism. Just don't expect my business.

The fact in the US is that non-smokers make up the majority of the population. Adult smokers make up 19% (2010 data) of the population. There has been a large swing in the US for a healthier lifestyle which has created its own new economy. There are new businesses catering to this lifestyle and many existing businesses have adopted new programs and menus to feed this new movement. Many states have adopted very strict clean air acts for indoor and some outdoor public places along with restaurants and bars which prohibits smoking. The simple fact is that smoking is becoming more difficult and it's acceptance is dwindling.

The data and science for the damage caused by both smoking and second hand smoke has been validated for years and is widely accepted. Each year, more data is available to support these claims. You can dispute it all you want but thousands of scientists and physicians have proved otherwise for decades and have the data to prove it. But if that is what you need to do to justify smoking to yourself, go ahead, it is your right.

 

[grantwiscour]

I must've missed the part in the Bill of Rights where we have a "right to not be offended". Jeez.

Now, if we can just get to the point where we can keep people from stepping on the reef. That is what gets me.

 

[boat sju]

I nievely raised my hand thinking I would not be the only one in the room that didn't smoke and thinking he was going to somehow praise me.

I think the one thing we should all take away from this thread and agree upon is that you NEVER raise your hand.

 

[jar546]

I think the one thing we should all take away from this thread and agree upon is that you NEVER raise your hand.

Kind of like volunteering for the unknown when you are already in the military

 

[Crass3000]

As expected, this thread turned into an argument on a few levels, although not that bad. Somewhere, the questions in the OP I made were quietly lost. If I did not preface my OP the way I did, I wonder if the tone here would be the same?

First off, I take extreme offense to the word Nazi being used to describe anti smokers who verbalize their position to protect their health and right to breathe clean air. I think the word Nazi is overkill, inappropriate and a very poor choice considering the history of the word. SB may allow it but that still does not make it appropriate or a good choice.

Secondly, as I eluded to previously, the free market will take care of itself and already has. The result of the free market will vary geographically so what "kills" a business in one area may not in another.

Everyone is passionate about their rights which is why we have arguments. Everyone believes they are right and most positions have valid points; some lack substance and common sense but are driven by the person's belief so they can justify it to themselves.

If I am diving outside of the US, I have already accepted the fact that I will be exposed to more smokers and second hand smoke. It is a personal choice that I have to make. If I am diving in the US, it is my expectation from experience that I will not have to expose myself to other's smoking habits. There are more choices of boats and I can simply call ahead to verify whether or not they allow smoking on the boat. If they do, I tell them that is why I am not booking and that I am not alone.

If a dive charter allows smoking and has built a business based on that fact then more power to them. It is their right to build their business the way they see fit. I applaud their entrepreneur ism. Just don't expect my business.

The fact in the US is that non-smokers make up the majority of the population. Adult smokers make up 19% (2010 data) of the population. There has been a large swing in the US for a healthier lifestyle which has created its own new economy. There are new businesses catering to this lifestyle and many existing businesses have adopted new programs and menus to feed this new movement. Many states have adopted very strict clean air acts for indoor and some outdoor public places along with restaurants and bars which prohibits smoking. The simple fact is that smoking is becoming more difficult and it's acceptance is dwindling.

The data and science for the damage caused by both smoking and second hand smoke has been validated for years and is widely accepted. Each year, more data is available to support these claims. You can dispute it all you want but thousands of scientists and physicians have proved otherwise for decades and have the data to prove it. But if that is what you need to do to justify smoking to yourself, go ahead, it is your right.

Nice Blog.... Too long to bother reading...

 

[boulderjohn]

I'd probably count myself as one of those people who would ask everyone to at least stand down wind on a boat.

I understand why people don't want to be around it but there has to be some sane understanding that if we are smoking on the back of the boat where all the diesel smoke is when the boat is running, you shouldn't be affected or offended.

I just wanted to give a little information about the physics of air moving around a moving boat.

As you can see from the diagram below, what happens on a boat depends upon the nature of the boat. If it is a typical large dive boat with a solid front, as it moves along the air moving air will wrap around it and blow back into the boat. If someone is smoking at the back of the boat, the smoke will drift back into the boat with it. If, on the other hand, it is a small open boat without an obstacle in the front, the smoke will drift off the back.




This is the same reason the back window of your SUV gets dirty on dusty roads and wet when it's raining.

 

[NAM001]

THOUGH I agree with the position of we all should stop smoking, Smoke is a very small contributer to ones health, I say this from the second hand aspect. Deisel fumes, auto exhaust ect. are the big ones. How much toxisity is there to pasting chemicals on ones self. Toxisity you say well look at a 50 yo man and compare to a woman an see the long term effects of such practices. There is the position that tanning booths cause cancer. With enough loonies backng it we could find a second hand effect of that also. Since quiting i find that smoke is quite irritating sometimes to he point that i have to just get away from it. If one had to assign a political position to smoking then it would be the liberals tht say there is no middle ground to the smoking issue, its my way or the highway, it must be irradicated from our society. LIBERALS ,,,, the group that hug trees and and cry out "WHY CANT WE JUST ALL GET ALONG" Could it be that smokers may be more social minded than thier zero tolerance counterparts. It is funny that zero tollerance and embracing differfences , are all spoke from the same mouths.

The National Cancer Institute issued it's position on second hand tobacco smoke, and states exposure to any amount of second hand smoke increases the risk of cancers. Secondhand Smoke and Cancer - National Cancer Institute
The duration and amount of exposure I am sure increases this risk.

With all the known health concerns, why expose others to an unnecessary risk. I am all for zero tobacco use. The cancers it causes are devastating to person and family.

---------- Post added March 30th, 2013 at 03:12 PM ----------

I would beg to differ with much of what you have said. Business have not put the smoking light out for the customer convienience. It is out because they cant be insured or there is a non smoker on the city counsel that is up for reelection. ect. When you cant appeal to the minds of men then you legislate against themand you punish the many for what a few on a panel or board have decided. Its called politics. If you cant alter the % of smokers by banning them in resteraunts then you expand regulations to include the streets. When that doesnt do it you tax it off the shelves. HOw many birth control devices have been linked to cancer. You wont see that priced off the sales shelf. Hpow much make up has long term health problems. Do we even need to Get into the ED products, BOTOX the list goes on and on. Those are some that will never come off the shelves cause half the population believe that they are absolute necessities in ones life suport. Isnt that called addiction. Eventually when pot is legalized than you will find that because of the vary reasons that have banned cigerettes, you will allow pot to be smoked. I can see it now the sign says. WELCOME TO BB'S BAR B Q PUB AND GRILL WE ARE TOKING FRIENDLY ESTABLISHMENT. FOR YOUR SAFETY AND TO ENHANCE YOUR DINING EXPERIENCE THERE IS NO SMOKING OR USE OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS ALLOWED.

Referenes to the free market changing to social needs is also a bunch of guff. The change the free market is making is to comply to regulation and code knowing that if they dont they will be closed down.

19% of population is smokers. Or has 19% ADMITTED to smoking, and more lieing about it so thay are not put on a hazardous tobacco person list. I personally think tht the furvor that is expended to track down tobacco users should be expanded to include acitone and toxoc hair chemicals ( oops ther go the nail shops and hair shops_) high power uv or ir systems ( there go the tanning shops. dating drugs. ( there go the bars and clubs) use of rf in vehicles. I cant even think of the impacct of that. The withdrawals may be worse than the texting.

As for the use of the word NAZI, there is no other word that fits The boots are there to force you to allign with the party agenda. There are those that hail the wearers of the boots and those that dispise the boots.

As expected, this thread turned into an argument on a few levels, although not that bad. Somewhere, the questions in the OP I made were quietly lost. If I did not preface my OP the way I did, I wonder if the tone here would be the same?

First off, I take extreme offense to the word Nazi being used to describe anti smokers who verbalize their position to protect their health and right to breathe clean air. I think the word Nazi is overkill, inappropriate and a very poor choice considering the history of the word. SB may allow it but that still does not make it appropriate or a good choice.

Secondly, as I eluded to previously, the free market will take care of itself and already has. The result of the free market will vary geographically so what "kills" a business in one area may not in another.

Everyone is passionate about their rights which is why we have arguments. Everyone believes they are right and most positions have valid points; some lack substance and common sense but are driven by the person's belief so they can justify it to themselves.

If I am diving outside of the US, I have already accepted the fact that I will be exposed to more smokers and second hand smoke. It is a personal choice that I have to make. If I am diving in the US, it is my expectation from experience that I will not have to expose myself to other's smoking habits. There are more choices of boats and I can simply call ahead to verify whether or not they allow smoking on the boat. If they do, I tell them that is why I am not booking and that I am not alone.

If a dive charter allows smoking and has built a business based on that fact then more power to them. It is their right to build their business the way they see fit. I applaud their entrepreneur ism. Just don't expect my business.

The fact in the US is that non-smokers make up the majority of the population. Adult smokers make up 19% (2010 data) of the population. There has been a large swing in the US for a healthier lifestyle which has created its own new economy. There are new businesses catering to this lifestyle and many existing businesses have adopted new programs and menus to feed this new movement. Many states have adopted very strict clean air acts for indoor and some outdoor public places along with restaurants and bars which prohibits smoking. The simple fact is that smoking is becoming more difficult and it's acceptance is dwindling.

The data and science for the damage caused by both smoking and second hand smoke has been validated for years and is widely accepted. Each year, more data is available to support these claims. You can dispute it all you want but thousands of scientists and physicians have proved otherwise for decades and have the data to prove it. But if that is what you need to do to justify smoking to yourself, go ahead, it is your right.

---------- Post added March 30th, 2013 at 03:27 PM ----------

Makes me wonder what this man has been around that caused his cancer. I can only think that he has been exposed to things that are also listed as contents of cigertette smoke. Perhaps it is the wrong diagnosed cause or a convienient one.

First, best wishes to your uncle, hope he manages to beat this - I would not wish cancer on anyone. I do not understand, though, how you can state with conviction that this is a second-hand smoke cancer. Cancer results from a combination of genetic and environmental factors, and although certain types of cancer may be correlated with smoking or with second hand smoke, causation is more difficult to ascertain. To suggest that because this type of cancer has a correlation with second hand smoke means that his has been caused by second hand smoke is a stretch at best - particularly since you state that he has never smoked and does not socialize with smokers.

 

[Doc]

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

THOUGH I agree with the position of we all should stop smoking, Smoke is a very small contributer to ones health, I say this from the second hand aspect. Deisel fumes, auto exhaust ect. are the big ones. How much toxisity is there to pasting chemicals on ones self. Toxisity you say well look at a 50 yo man and compare to a woman an see the long term effects of such practices. There is the position that tanning booths cause cancer. With enough loonies backng it we could find a second hand effect of that also. Since quiting i find that smoke is quite irritating sometimes to he point that i have to just get away from it. If one had to assign a political position to smoking then it would be the liberals tht say there is no middle ground to the smoking issue, its my way or the highway, it must be irradicated from our society. LIBERALS ,,,, the group that hug trees and and cry out "WHY CANT WE JUST ALL GET ALONG" Could it be that smokers may be more social minded than thier zero tolerance counterparts. It is funny that zero tollerance and embracing differfences , are all spoke from the same mouths.




---------- Post added March 30th, 2013 at 03:12 PM ----------

I would beg to differ with much of what you have said. Business have not put the smoking light out for the customer convienience. It is out because they cant be insured or there is a non smoker on the city counsel that is up for reelection. ect. When you cant appeal to the minds of men then you legislate against themand you punish the many for what a few on a panel or board have decided. Its called politics. If you cant alter the % of smokers by banning them in resteraunts then you expand regulations to include the streets. When that doesnt do it you tax it off the shelves. HOw many birth control devices have been linked to cancer. You wont see that priced off the sales shelf. Hpow much make up has long term health problems. Do we even need to Get into the ED products, BOTOX the list goes on and on. Those are some that will never come off the shelves cause half the population believe that they are absolute necessities in ones life suport. Isnt that called addiction. Eventually when pot is legalized than you will find that because of the vary reasons that have banned cigerettes, you will allow pot to be smoked. I can see it now the sign says. WELCOME TO BB'S BAR B Q PUB AND GRILL WE ARE TOKING FRIENDLY ESTABLISHMENT. FOR YOUR SAFETY AND TO ENHANCE YOUR DINING EXPERIENCE THERE IS NO SMOKING OR USE OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS ALLOWED.

Referenes to the free market changing to social needs is also a bunch of guff. The change the free market is making is to comply to regulation and code knowing that if they dont they will be closed down.

19% of population is smokers. Or has 19% ADMITTED to smoking, and more lieing about it so thay are not put on a hazardous tobacco person list. I personally think tht the furvor that is expended to track down tobacco users should be expanded to include acitone and toxoc hair chemicals ( oops ther go the nail shops and hair shops_) high power uv or ir systems ( there go the tanning shops. dating drugs. ( there go the bars and clubs) use of rf in vehicles. I cant even think of the impacct of that. The withdrawals may be worse than the texting.

As for the use of the word NAZI, there is no other word that fits The boots are there to force you to allign with the party agenda. There are those that hail the wearers of the boots and those that dispise the boots.



---------- Post added March 30th, 2013 at 03:27 PM ----------

Makes me wonder what this man has been around that caused his cancer. I can only think that he has been exposed to things that are also listed as contents of cigertette smoke. Perhaps it is the wrong diagnosed cause or a convienient one.

... so all of that amounts to you will defend to the death your God-given right to blow smoke in everybody else's face ... and anyone who objects is a liberal Nazi ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)