Silent World Review 11/28 - 30 With new ownership (long)

[Lorenzoid]

Do any of you cynics out there think a dive op with just a few divers signed up might bluff and declare that the boat is going out, betting that the few divers will opt to forfeit? It seems crazy, but I have to wonder ... being a cynic and all.

 

[flots am]

Do any of you cynics out there think a dive op with just a few divers signed up might bluff and declare that the boat is going out, betting that the few divers will opt to forfeit? It seems crazy, but I have to wonder ... being a cynic and all.

It's possible that he played poker, poorly, expecting them to cancel.

flots

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

This is an interesting conflict between a diver being responsible for his/her own safety and the economic pressure to take trips out in unsafe conditions. Pressure on the operator, who wants revenue, and pressure on the divers, who feel compelled not to lose their money or to preserve their reputation with operators as dive-anytime regulars.

My philosophy is simple, safety begins at the dock, not on the dive platform. My wife and I are experienced divers, but we don't go out in seas over 5 feet. Now, this is Florida and we have lived and boated here all my life, so we know that 5 feet usually means a short, steep nasty chop that makes moving around the boat prior to exit, and regaining the boat, strenuous and hazardous. That is my personal safety threshold because any range that exceeds 5 feet is just going to be miserable as well as risky. People coming from elsewhere might not know this. I have never had a dive in rough seas (and in my lifetime I have done plenty) that was better or more thrilling that the dives I do in calmer seas, and those are much safer and more enjoyable.

So, I usually wait to know for sure that the weather will be good and just go on the day I want without an advance booking. I call around the night before to see which boats have space (I use several different operators, all good). If I wake up and the wind is howling, I just don't go and nothing is lost. If for some reason I have booked a special trip I explain beforehand my limits as far as seas and try to work out ahead of time a credit (full or partial) towards another trip if I reserve in advance and then decide not to go when the captain is still willing. Thus far the ops I use have been able to work with me on the very, very, very few times I have ever cancelled. Unlike a prior poster, I don't think they "talk about me" or have me on some kind of list.

The OP's story, despite his claim to awesome diving, indicates that he, or at least his wife, were perilously close to injury getting back on the boat. However, he might not have realized until too late that 6' seas in Florida are a serious hazard and he made the best of the situation for the Grove dives. In this case, it seems the conditions were worse than either the divers or the captain expected for the Grove dive. Thus, no fault for leaving the dock on anyone's part. But, once they hit the high seas, I would have told the captain not to do the Grove dive and take us to a sheltered site instead or cancel the dive due to their shop policy. I also would have expected the captain, in 6-7 foot seas, to suggest the same thing on his own.

Wookie's comment about the "safety card" is well taken. It can be thrown by the captain as well as the divers. Personally, I am surprised that any op would run in seas OVER six feet in regular dive boats. That is just asking for an injury on the boat and miserable customers to boot.

Thinking it over, I believe that the shop should have been more accommodating.

Once the OP went through the problems of the rough dive, I can't say I blame him for not wanting a second go-around, since he really did not know what to expect. At that point I would have expected the operator to consider the situation, even if the second, sheltered dive might not have been a problem, and worked out a suitable cancellation/resolution.

 

[Wookie]

I'm scratching my head a little over this one. Last time I checked, customers provided various and sundry inputs of capital that enabled a business to operate. If a given business has a monopoly, well hell,
that company can do whatever they want and make money. In a tight market like Key largo dive ops, one po'ed customer who can write a cogent, reasonable-in-tone diatribe is going to get his or her negative point across to a lot more people than stacks of stacks of kudo posts, a lot of which most people kinda discount to begin with.

Now by "customer", I hope you realize that I am referring to the collective use of the word. Now as to folks "thinking that it's all about them" - well, it is all about them and their expectations. But hey, I'm long out of the dive bidness and there are probably new ways of dealing with people that I never even imagined.

Lets look at any number of situations. The charterer wants to dive whatever dive site. The conditions are marginal for a recreational trip, due to depth, current, and the quality of the divers the charterer has brought. They aren't bad, but they aren't ready for prime time. I suggest an alternate site where the divers can get out of the current. Nope, it has to be whatever. The charterer has heard of it, it was written up in a mag, whatever, that's where the charterer wants to go. Now, not all of the divers are poor, maybe half. I suggest to the charterer that if we go to whatever, I will hold the divers back who aren't ready for the dive. Nope, everyone will be offered the dive.

At that point, the customer is wrong. Why are they wrong? Because they want to place their customers in a hazardous situation, in my opinion. Legally, my opinion is the only one that counts, therefore the customer is wrong. In this exact case, I lost the client because I wasn't able to keep the situation under control.

Some clients refuse to be educated, and that makes them more problem than their revenue is worth.

 

[scubadada]

Do any of you cynics out there think a dive op with just a few divers signed up might bluff and declare that the boat is going out, betting that the few divers will opt to forfeit? It seems crazy, but I have to wonder ... being a cynic and all.

It's not a game, one should be able to assume the operator's decision is based on the diver's safety.

Lets look at any number of situations. The charterer wants to dive whatever dive site. The conditions are marginal for a recreational trip, due to depth, current, and the quality of the divers the charterer has brought. They aren't bad, but they aren't ready for prime time. I suggest an alternate site where the divers can get out of the current. Nope, it has to be whatever. The charterer has heard of it, it was written up in a mag, whatever, that's where the charterer wants to go. Now, not all of the divers are poor, maybe half. I suggest to the charterer that if we go to whatever, I will hold the divers back who aren't ready for the dive. Nope, everyone will be offered the dive.

At that point, the customer is wrong. Why are they wrong? Because they want to place their customers in a hazardous situation, in my opinion. Legally, my opinion is the only one that counts, therefore the customer is wrong. In this exact case, I lost the client because I wasn't able to keep the situation under control.

Some clients refuse to be educated, and that makes them more problem than their revenue is worth.

Wookie, I will dive with you, thanks. I really hope to do so in the near future.

 

[tekkydiver]

The experience of the op shows just how difficult it is for a dive op to make a living in the keys.... especially Key Largo. There are simply not enough customers to support the ever growing fleet. The result? Once you hand over the money, it can be difficult to get it back. Remember, a dive boat sells seats. Once a day passes, income from an unsold seat can never be recovered. He can't have a sale and sell twice as many next week.

The marina doesn't care how many trips a vessel makes, the rent is the same and unrelenting. Permits, licenses, taxes and other bills must be paid regardless of income.

The biggest worry is when these boats get pushed to the point where maintenance and repairs are either set aside or performed half-azzed. (if you want to see how well a boat is maintained....grab a peek at the wiring. It's a dead give-away.)

 

[flots am]

At that point, the customer is wrong. Why are they wrong? Because they want to place their customers in a hazardous situation, in my opinion. Legally, my opinion is the only one that counts, therefore the customer is wrong. In this exact case, I lost the client because I wasn't able to keep the situation under control.

The only thing more expensive than losing a client, is not losing a client that you should have.

While yours are more expensive losses, since (AFAIK) you don't do day trips, it would be a lot worse if you took someone somewhere dangerous and they died, than if you refused to take them and they were pissed off.

I'll take "pissed off" over "dead or injured" any day of the week.

flots

 

[Mike]

My 2 cents - when we are going diving somewhere during a time of year where conditions are less then ideal, we book a minimal amount of dives if the dive shop has a lot of hard and fast rules about cancelled dives. We just book enough to ensure getting on the boat the first day and play it by ear after that, sometimes only booking the next days dives at the end of the first day. When conditions are rough and subjective I've learned this the hard way.

Was zodiac diving in 8-10 foot seas!! Try that some time!! Did the first dive and wife got real sea sick on the surface interval sitting out in the open ocean in wind, rain and rough seas. The op asked if we wanted to stay and complete the surface interval and do the 2nd dive, I thought he was F'n kidding, I looked at her and got the thumbs down and told him nope. We were charged for the 2nd dives. The op was fully wiling to subject us to a continued pounding or so he indicated, maybe he wouldn't have if I called his bluff? Who knows. We called it, we paid. End of story.

I recommend you book minimal amounts of dives in dicey conditions, its really the only way to go, you have to stick your toe in the water in these situations, much better than booking multiple dives and getting into these crazy situations of should we go or not? Are we gong to be charged? You'll find when you book minimally and now you're on the dock talking about tomorrow, the dive operator is MUCH more liberal about their policies since they are more interested now in getting you to go the next day and don't already have your booking. You'll find them very willing to negotiate on conditions for tomorrows diving as they are now in the position of gaining further business instead of already having it.

 

[deeper thoughts]

My 2 cents - when we are going diving somewhere during a time of year where conditions are less then ideal, we book a minimal amount of dives if the dive shop has a lot of hard and fast rules about cancelled dives. We just book enough to ensure getting on the boat the first day and play it by ear after that, sometimes only booking the next days dives at the end of the first day. When conditions are rough and subjective I've learned this the hard way.

Was zodiac diving in 8-10 foot seas!! Try that some time!! Did the first dive and wife got real sea sick on the surface interval sitting out in the open ocean in wind, rain and rough seas. The op asked if we wanted to stay and complete the surface interval and do the 2nd dive, I thought he was F'n kidding, I looked at her and got the thumbs down and told him nope. We were charged for the 2nd dives. The op was fully wiling to subject us to a continued pounding or so he indicated, maybe he wouldn't have if I called his bluff? Who knows. We called it, we paid. End of story.

I recommend you book minimal amounts of dives in dicey conditions, its really the only way to go, you have to stick your toe in the water in these situations, much better than booking multiple dives and getting into these crazy situations of should we go or not? Are we gong to be charged? You'll find when you book minimally and now you're on the dock talking about tomorrow, the dive operator is MUCH more liberal about their policies since they are more interested now in getting you to go the next day and don't already have your booking. You'll find them very willing to negotiate on conditions for tomorrows diving as they are now in the position of gaining further business instead of already having it.

You are right. There are so many dive ops out here.

 

[sportxlh]

That's too bad regarding the original post: I had a nice time with Silent World in May. The new owners seem like decent folks.

Anyway, the original post and the various other posts with advice makes me grateful for living so close to the ocean and various dive boats. I generally wait until Thursday or Friday morning to check the marine conditions and then book a Saturday morning trip if all seems well. 95% of the time I get on my preferred boat (Jupiter Dive Center) and if not I can go out with other good ops like JASA, SFDHQ, etc. Even when I head down to the Keys, I tend to wait fairly late in the game to book the dive trips. Those divers who live in south Florida are blessed!!!!!!!