Side Mount Bicker Battle...

[Razorista]

You should really go and spend some time with him.

Probably. If I could afford that, I would go to Mexico first however, you might understand that at least

Edd Sorenson's diving isn't any more comparable to my local diving than cenote diving.

I do not think I could learn much in the short lessons I could afford except that I would like more interessting dive sites

The 'restrictions' I normally dive however would not fit either Edd Sorenson nor an SMS100/75 alone.
I do not dive caves, in my case that is overhanging branches or sunken trees and plants I want to avoid to disturb.
Being wedged between hard rock however is not something I find 'entertaining', I do that from time to time, mind you, but not as a cave diver.
The Razor allows to pass tighter restrictions then an SMS100 of course, but I do not think that would stop someone like Edd or Steve from moving through holes I would not even dare to try - avoiding touching the branches I need to avoid would be physically impossible for both of them however, the are both more than twice my bulk at the shoulders.

Different environments, but I expect local instructors to develop enough sidemount skill to learn from them again soon - they simply have more time for that than me.

 

[bamafan]

The 'restrictions' I normally dive however would not fit either Edd Sorenson nor an SMS100/75 alone.

Wow I didn't know there were restrictions this tight in an ow duck pond. With your vast experience you should really take up cave or other technical diving. Maybe one of these days you will get to dive an SMS 100 / 75. There really isn't a better rig on the market. You will also need a Pinnacle Black Ice to get the optimum performance out of it though.

 

[Razorista]

Now you are trolling, so I won't answer anymore
I like seeing divers in an SMS, but I would not try it again myself, I would rather go without a BCD.

 

[Razorista]

...The 'sidemount bicker battle', as it was so snidely re-named, was a good example of where a solitary individual of very limited experience attempted to push a case for a single unified approach. That case was rejected by consensus of the other participants; who represented a wider cross-section of sidemount diving perspectives. I see that as a direct opposite to what happened with GUE/DIR back in the day.

Prime example of the way it works.
I just commented on a conclusion to a thread that seemed premature (and wrong) to me.
The bickering started after that - and I did not start it.
I do not want to whine, but you should stop insulting me @DevonDiver - there is no need for that.

It is repeating all the time with different participants. Someone has an opinion on sidemount and others just have to start a fight about it.

People criticize experience that is not related to the thread at all. Anyone, even without experience, can have an opinion.
Discussing that is more important to some than the topic, however.

With me involved that backfires because I am no Andy Davis, but I am certainly one of the most experienced Razor2 divers there can be in Germany/Europe.
I met most of those that bought a Razor before me and they did not succeed as well in teaching themselves to use it.
It is hard for anyone to keep up when someone dedicates his life to being in the water as often as possible and ignores the normal route to become an instructor first.

Since Sidemount in my opinion only started when Steve Bogaerts released his videos and first made open water divers interested, it is not easy to discuss this with me.
I am personally convinced every bit of experience i could myself have had before would have been wasted.

Germany is known to be 'special'. We standardize everything, most of the time before we allow anyone to use it.
DIR is so strong in Germany that most people ignore names like Hogarth, Gavin and Jablonski and act like Germans invented it or at least are responsible for most of the standards.

When I came along in my sidemount gear everyone immediately wanted to 'standardize' it.
You have to do this, you need to do that:

Use standard stage rigging because: standards.
Everybody taking a stage from you will be in trouble...
(Well, then I just keep them )

You have to breath your longhose.
Because you will be unable to donate a not breathed regulator fast.
Because someone will rip the wrong breathed regulator from your mouth, as this is the way it 'always' happens.
(Well, take whatever you like, I don't mind )

A hose clip must be either caveline or an O-ring breakaway - everything else is a no-go.
(Ok, extra for you I will not use the breakaway and simulate caveline attachment by always unclipping when you are involved )

You cannot dive with this group.
Because we/they do not know your equipment you are a danger to them.
(Well, then I will just dive solo and wave to your group from time to time )

...

I have to admit, I've had a few good laughs progressing past all the resistance

Standards are 'destroyed' by sidemount at the moment - bad and outdated standards.
The worst thing that could happen is for that to come back to sidemount someday.

 

[Razorista]

I should't comment on that at all @Bennno, but I am truly interested how you could know that for a fact???
I really do not have a problem with you hating me that much.
I would like to know the source of your information, though.

And @'the mods': Yes, I will not commend on it anymore, but I am truly interested to know.

 

[Razorista]

I do not claim I am the most experienced at anything @Bennno.
I know however that not many can have received their Razor 2 harness before me, since it wasn't released earlier.
Nothing more.
And I dive a lot, more than most instructors can manage using sidemount and a lot more than most tec and cave divers could afford.
Hardly anyone has reached more than 500 dives since the Razor 2 was officially released and those that have mostly do not use forums a lot.

I claim to know a lot of those who received a Razor 2 before me, since I took some effort finding as many as possible to learn from.
I mostly found people to learn from with a lot less experience but higher training or skill level than myself.

Oh and sorry @MODs, I promised not to answer.
But this is still all good natured discussion and actually 'on-topic'.

So, what are your sources @Bennno ?
Since you do not only claim to know a lot about me, but also about the broader topic addressed by NetDoc with this thread.

We both seem to be 'symbols' or examples of the type of behavior this is all about.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In backmount diving most people are locked into the horizontal position.
Everything else requires effort.

That's not true ... it doesn't require any additional effort ... it requires technique and practice ...

I can think of several reasons for preferring SM over BM ... or vice versa. Most of them boil down to the circumstances of the particular dive, not some perceived inherent advantage to diving one way over the other ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

PADI have provided sidemount training since 2012, at both recreational and technical levels. Do you seriously think that the majority of sidemount divers are uncertified?

... but the requirement for a PADI instructor to teach sidemount is ridiculously low, something like four dives in a sidemount rig and pass a written test. Whether the majority of sidemount divers are certified isn't the issue ... the quality of training provided is. And the majority of PADI instructors (or any other recreational agency, for that matter) teaching sidemount barely know anything outside of the syllabus. I've watched some of these people teach, and it makes me want to take them aside and recommend they stick to what they know ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Not really.

1. Equipment skills. Set-up, adjustment, familiarity, operation, function etc..
2. Emergency/contingency skills. Air-sharing, CESA, Cramp release self-rescue etc..
3. Personal skills. Propulsion, breathing, stability, control, compensation etc..
4. Non-technical skills. Communication, team work, situational awareness etc..
5. Psychological skills. Stress management, focus, discipline etc..
6. Operational skills. Dive planning, run-time management, ascent protocols etc
7. Mission skills. Specific to the specialist area, if applicable; guideline use, DSMBs, liftbags etc.

Equipment skills are just the tip of the iceberg. But they are nonetheless important and part of a very holistic necessity.

That's how an OW class should be taught ... the reality is that most only cover items 1 and 2 ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nakatomi]

I do not claim I am the most experienced at anything @Bennno

Really?
But you just posted just that:

I am certainly one of the most experienced Razor2 divers there can be in Germany/Europe.

"One of the most" or "the most", that's splitting hairs.
Now you may have experience with your Razor2, as in using it and diving it.
But you do realize that experience has a quality component too, right?

Deep dives, cold dives, dives in current, mixed gas dives, wreck dives, cave dives, stage/multistage dives, DPV dives and such.

Except for the cold dives and a little testing with stages, there is absolutely no indication that you have experience in any of the other areas.
And to me it's reasonable to assume that there are people out there with this experience.
So to summarize, I would consider your claim to be highly unlikely.