Is Side Mount the new DIR??? Building resentment towards us as a group...

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't understand this statement. Are you saying that proper trim isn't being horizontal and that the bottles should not be parallel to your body no matter what rig you are diving? I disagree with this premise and think that some rigs are easier to achieve this in than others. Some work well with aluminum tanks while others work better with steel tanks. I am of the mindset that there are 2 basic rigs. One for aluminum tanks and the other for steel tanks. Can you do both with either? Yes you can but I don't think it is optimal. There are people diving cold water who use minimulist rigs with smaller steel tanks and because of the drysuit lift they look pretty good. Take that setup to Florida or Mexico and it doesn't work as well. I think a basic set of standards can be written where some things are standardized such as the long hose on the right tank and having the bottles and diver in proper trim without spg's pointing down and such.

Not what I mean at all. Trim is the desired outcome ... the means to achieve it will vary depending on chosen gear ... among other things like exposure suit, tank choice and even body shape.

You can't just tell someone to put their band at a specific place, make their leash a specific length, and their tanks will sit right where they're supposed to ... it generally takes a dive, a tweak and maybe another dive. You can't universally say that a hose clamp works better than a cam band ... or that loop bungees work betterthan a ring bungee ... depends on other factors. You can't say that lollipop gauges are universally better or worse than routing them down ... depends on a few things, not least of which is choice of first stage. That's why it's not feasible to standardize ... not in the sense that GUE standardizes anyway. Some approaches work better on some rigs than they work on others.

... Bob (Grateful Diver )

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So you are saying the GUE / DIR crowd did nothing to standardize bm diving? I disagree with this and maybe we are diving in different places. I don't dive Peacock or Ginnie much and at best I do a handful of ow dives a year at best.

For the majority of divers ... no. Most divers have never even heard of GUE. Your perspective is limited to north Florida ... and not even all of that. It's a big world out there ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver )

 

[TONY CHANEY]

I do like NetDoc's idea of having a long hose on each bottle. You are able to donate the reg that is in your mouth and without thinking is it the short hose or the long hose. I dive Poseidon regs and they have no left or right side nor upside or downside position.

 

[The Chairman]

So you are saying the GUE / DIR crowd did nothing to standardize bm diving?

If you want to rewrite history. Bill Hogarth Main is the one responsible for minimalist kit adopted by DIR. They didn't invent it, but they certainly acted like they did. See how successful they were at spreading their propaganda? I can't tell you how many people tell me I dive DIR, when I'm actually diving a modified Hogarthian kit. I'm even in one of the early videos where they quote me on the merits of neutral buoyancy. I'm in here about 7:26 or so...

​

I've never claimed to be DIR, but since I adopted the same system they adopted, I'm often mistaken as one of them. Hell, they even think I'm one of them. I have suggested to Jared that they call me their new strokesperson... he even chuckled at that. So, no, I don't think GI3's antics helped bring about any kind of standardization. In spite of how he pissed people off, the larger community accomplished what he couldn't.

 

[The Chairman]

You are able to donate the reg that is in your mouth and without thinking is it the short hose or the long hose.

Precisely. With my double reg bungee, I never clip off a reg either. A simple pull and the reg comes loose, then the hose pulls easily out of the bungee on the tank.

 

[DevonDiver]

Sidemount doesn't really lend itself well to standards. Proper trim in a Nomad or Contour isn't going to be the same as proper trim in a Stealth or Razor. Different approaches work better for some people and applications than they do for others.

^ This ^

I agree that sidemount doesn't lend itself to a single, unified, approach. Wing shapes, bungee methods, lollipop versus in-line SPGs, butt-rails versus D-rings etc... all have particular strengths and weaknesses in relation to other diver and/or environmental factors.

That said, I believe there are a number of general, or over-arching, principles that can be identified. These principles are a guide in the application of appropriate sidemount selection and configuration. Nothing more, nothing less.

For instance, cylinders should be in trim with the side torso of the diver. Valves in the armpit. Not hanging below, not floating above, not extending forwards. How you achieve that proper trim is determined by the cylinder type used - and leads to further consideration on optimal bungee method and sizing, lower attachment points etc etc

What I've seen in discussion, online and real-life, is nothing more than optimization criteria. Usually where a diver has implemented an inefficient approach in relation to their particular diving needs.

There are a few examples of inexperienced sidemount divers who've been caught up in a particular approach and are misguided in believing it should be universally adopted. This is a case of tunnel-vision and lack of perspective. In contrast with the 'DIR' analogy, it is a 'bottom-up' delusion, not a 'top-down' dogma.

The 'sidemount bicker battle', as it was so snidely re-named, was a good example of where a solitary individual of very limited experience attempted to push a case for a single unified approach. That case was rejected by consensus of the other participants; who represented a wider cross-section of sidemount diving perspectives. I see that as a direct opposite to what happened with GUE/DIR back in the day.

 

[The Chairman]

Not hanging below,

Not going to happen for me. Arthritis prevents that. I'm at least an inch or two below my armpit. Hasn't been a problem for me at all. You certainly won't find any skid marks from me.

as it was so snidely re-named

Note: it was simply 'named'. The bickering was hijacking a useful discussion. The solution was to split it off and the split needed a name. I simply called a spade an FN shovel.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you want to rewrite history. Bill Hogarth Main is the one responsible for minimalist kit adopted by DIR. They didn't invent it, but they certainly acted like they did.

I don't know that they claim to have invented it ... both of the GUE instructors I took a class from specifically said that they didn't invent it, they just standardized it and packaged it. Rather successfully, it would seem. I decided their system was a bit too regimented for my taste ... but I sure learned a lot from taking those classes.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Pullmyfinger]

It is no different than the GUE / DIR crowd back in the day. There is no enforcement of that either outside of their projects and classes.

This is something that I find interesting, and a little odd.
There are so many threads where people introduce GUE standards or DIR, or whatever else they want to call it now, so people don't get upset.

If it isn't related to a GUE course, or a GUE project, then why would anyone get upset about GUE standards? Or even care about it?

Yet all too often when there is a discussion that has nothing at all to do with GUE, people will inject something about GUE, or someone's internet posts from the 90's.....this is followed by much gnashing of teeth by people, and just detracts from the conversation. In this case sidemount.

"Is sidemount the new DIR?"
I hope so, so people can finally "let go" of the mean things GI3 said back when DVD's were introduced.

Regarding negativity in diving, or bad mouthing what others are doing. I think a lot of that comes down to people trying to protect their own rice bowl.

-Mitch

 

[Razorista]

To me this part of the discussion is very interesting so I try again to take part in it after moderation.
With a hopefully less controversial version of my original post this time:

Germany is known to be 'special'. We standardize everything, most of the time before we allow anyone to use it.
DIR is so strong in Germany that most people ignore names like Hogarth, Gavin and Jablonski and act like Germans invented it or at least are responsible for most of the standards.

When I came along in my sidemount gear everyone immediately wanted to 'standardize' it.
You have to do this, you need to do that:

Use standard stage rigging because: standards.
Everybody taking a stage from you will be in trouble...
(Well, then I just keep them )

You always have to breath your longhose.
Because you will be unable to donate a not breathed regulator fast.
Because someone will rip the wrong breathed regulator from your mouth, as this is the way it 'always' happens.
(Well, take whatever you like, I don't mind )

A hose clip must be either caveline or an O-ring breakaway - everything else is a no-go.
(Ok, extra for you I will not use the breakaway and simulate caveline attachment by always unclipping when you are involved )

You cannot dive with this group.
Because we/they do not know your equipment you are a danger to them.
(Well, then I will just dive solo and wave to your group from time to time )

...

I have to admit, I've had a few good laughs progressing past all the resistance

Standards are 'destroyed' by sidemount at the moment - bad and outdated standards mostly, the proven ones stay, often modified slightly.
The worst thing that could happen is for absolutist standardization to come back to sidemount someday.