Should Padi OW be called Resort Diver?

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I'm a newbie, 11 dives currently. Last fall I got my PADI OW. I have read a lot of threads that hate PADI and think its a joke but honestly I feel completely competent to do exactly what my cert says "Open Water". My dive buddy and I have done our best to get out about once a week here (well, since it got reasonably warm) lately and have never felt "unfit" to dive without a DM. I think it comes down to your instructors, and being a motivated student. I want to pack as many quality dives in before I get my AOW, I dont want to be one of "those" people! :)
 
The other more exact way would be for the resort to do a checkout dive (and this seems to offend some serious divers)--seems to be more common in the tropics, so I hear.

If you want to be left alone to "do your own thing" show up at any warm-water resort in February with BP/W, 7ft primary, can light, drysuit, and tell them you're from NJ and that your last dive was "at home, yesterday." After they're done eyeing your gear up for crowbars and hand sledges... they pretty much leave you alone.
 
I'm a newbie, 11 dives currently. Last fall I got my PADI OW. I have read a lot of threads that hate PADI and think its a joke but honestly I feel completely competent to do exactly what my cert says "Open Water". My dive buddy and I have done our best to get out about once a week here (well, since it got reasonably warm) lately and have never felt "unfit" to dive without a DM. I think it comes down to your instructors, and being a motivated student. I want to pack as many quality dives in before I get my AOW, I dont want to be one of "those" people! :)

^This! :wink:
 
I want to pack as many quality dives in before I get my AOW, I dont want to be one of "those" people! :)

You're exactly the type of student who should do AOW - with the right instructor - right now, before you develop bad habits and coping mechanisms that need together unlearned. The only thing worse than being "that guy" is being "this guy."
 
... and have never felt "unfit" to dive without a DM.

I remember many years ago feeling the same way. Only with the benefit of hindsight and further experience, did I understand how fragile my skill-set was back then, how many things I didn't know (that I didn't know) and how little capacity I had to cope with anything beyond the most benign parameters.

That said, a motivated, well-trained and improvement-orientated novice diver will obviously be in a better position to dive safely than the average. Motivated, well-trained and improvement-orientated divers who dive regularly seem to be a tiny minority of all those certified.

What I find interesting here is the assumption that a supervisor is going to make that much difference.

I think that changing the qualification structure would have a knock-on impact on DM/supervisor function. You were a qualified 'independent' diver as a result of your OW course. The DM/guides/supervisors didn't have significant liability...or responsibility... for you because of that.

As someone qualified to dive guide/supervise... would it make a difference to you if the divers with you were, for instance, 'Scuba Diver' qualified? Would you feel more liability because the diver 'had' to be supervised? How would that accountability impact your approach as a dive leader?

When someone is given an OW cert, everyone can 'wash their hands' of the individual. Liability and responsibility is passed to the individual diver. Is that really correct after only 4 training dives? Shouldn't someone (professionally trained) remain accountable for novice divers? Remain accountable for ensuring the correct application of training given to them, post qualification?
 
I was just certified O/W last year in Myrtle Beach. I realize it's all about the individuals, PADI gives you the tools to become a better diver, it's totally up to the individual to retain and consistently follow those guidelines and rules. I'm glad I took the certification and by no means am I ready to raise a ship from the ocean but I am completely capable of diving within my limits of training! It takes training and work every dive you make to remain skillfull and to do well with mastering the skills. But, like I said PADI gives you the tools you just have to use them and use them again to hone them into a talent. Everyone has to start somewhere and you have to use a lot of common sense along the way!
 
Honestly, there is no way anyone would talk me into taking charge of more than two people who weren't considered competent enough to be certified as OW divers. I do OW dives with students -- if I have a pair with me, invariably one will work on corking while the other is silt-crawling, and I'm stressed to the max grabbing the one in the silt to take him up to try to handle the one in the water column. NO dive supervisor can make up for inadequate skills on the part of a whole group of divers, and I don't care who you are. Look at technical instruction -- as the stakes go up, the ratios go DOWN.
 
Honestly, there is no way anyone would talk me into taking charge of more than two people who weren't considered competent enough to be certified as OW divers.

If training remained the same (as current OW), but only the need for supervision changed, then what really changes? Only the need for dive pros to take 'ownership' for their instructional handiwork. I think that's a really good idea...

NO dive supervisor can make up for inadequate skills on the part of a whole group of divers, and I don't care who you are. Look at technical instruction -- as the stakes go up, the ratios go DOWN.

Exactly. Requiring newly qualified entry-level divers to dive supervised - where the dive pro has a tangible responsibility for their safety - is likely to cause a significant improvement to how those dive operations are subsequently carried out.

Agencies, and by delegation instructors/divemasters, have always been able to disassociate themselves from responsibility for the safety of 'qualified independent divers'. It's a lovely 'get-out' clause. Provide whatever shoddy or inadequate training you want, then cease to have any responsibility for the outcome of that training.

It's why PADI, amongst others, have always remained calculatingly distanced from 'fun diving' activities - no standards applied, no QA process for 'non-instructional' diving etc etc. In doing so, they inherit no liability. Providing the initial instructor 'ticked the necessary boxes' of the training syllabus, then any subsequent incident affecting the 'qualified diver' is, de-facto, a result of their inability to properly apply the training. We (experienced dive pros) all know that inability to apply training is rarely due to student inattentiveness, but rather a task overload (too much, too soon), a weakness of training (too little, despite the box ticking) or the reality that real-world variables do not present themselves in a manner for which the student has prepared (stress-free, controlled and limited rehearsal of skills in the security of close supervision).

Requiring an initial stage of supervised diving creates a more gradual shift in responsibility from the dive pro to the individual diver. As it stands, there is an abrupt and immediate transition; a very carefully supervised and attentively supported OW student into an absolutely zero-supported and supervised OW diver.

As you say, "NO dive supervisor can make up for inadequate skills on the part of a whole group of divers" - this is true. Requiring formal supervision of entry-level, initially qualified divers would make a dive supervisor responsible for those under their care. Perhaps that would reflect in a decline in large groups of novice divers being led around by a single divemaster?

One thing I've noticed in divemasters who are expected to guide/escort/(supervise?) hordes of inexperienced divers is a sense of dislocation. It IS impossible to apply a sufficient duty-of-care given high ratios of diver-to-supervisor. When faced with the impossible, I've seen many divemasters who simply 'switch off' and hope for the best. They are enabled to do just that by the fact that said divers are 'qualified to dive independently', even if observation and evidence starkly points to a lesser ability.

---------- Post added May 20th, 2013 at 01:46 PM ----------

I realize it's all about the individuals, PADI gives you the tools to become a better diver, it's totally up to the individual to retain and consistently follow those guidelines and rules.... I am completely capable of diving within my limits of training!

With very limited experience, how do you identify the limits of your training? What scenarios and foreseeable contingencies do you envision when balancing a self-assessment of your competency and skill-set against potential demands?

Divers emerge from OW training as a product of a deliberate strategy to minimize risk assessment and awareness. That's sadly true. The OW course is very 'sugar-coated'. Instructors are taught to teach it that way. It results in more confident divers (lower drop-out rates) - but that confidence reflects a very rose-tinted reality. As such, it might be described as a false confidence...

Likewise, it takes time and dedication to truly ingrain skills. That time is not sufficiently provided in the short duration of an OW course. There is simply not sufficient in-water time to do do the skill repetition needed. It is possible to over-assess one's competency when performing skills under deliberate rehearsal conditions. That does not equate, at all, to how one could or would perform those skills under true emergency conditions.

Nor is there sufficient opportunity to encounter, and learn from, common problems that the diver will encounter. Further to that, the student OW diver is often unaware of the pro-active and subtle influences of their instructor to mitigate, avoid or resolve issues that do arise in training. Potential accident spirals are extinguished at a sufficiently early stage that the novice/trainee diver would be oblivious to what intervention occurred and why...
 
You're exactly the type of student who should do AOW - with the right instructor - right now, before you develop bad habits and coping mechanisms that need together unlearned. The only thing worse than being "that guy" is being "this guy."

Well I'm off to a tropical location tomorrow to do my AOW. I have about 12 dives in my logbook and I've lost track of which guy that makes me. I'll try to update you guys on what I think I got out of each training exercise from the perspective of a relatively new diver. You guys can decide whether I'm this guy, that guy or some other guy.
 

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