Should Padi OW be called Resort Diver?

[Wingy]

Something has been ticking away at the back of my lil brain.
This ALL refers to freshly minted divers NOT guys who have their card cos they need it to do charter dives etc.
From what I've seen,experienced and heard the Padi open water dive course doesn't equip you to go out with your buddy and run your own dive. According to Padi it does but reality seems to be totally different.
Once someone has a few dives under their belt and/or have done the "advanced" course they have the skills needed to dive proficiently. Their weighting is about right,they have good Boyancy control etc.
On that basis I just wonder if the Padi OW shouldn't be called resort diver and you dive with a dive master as a minimum.
Maybee I'm overthinking this.

So whos going to say yes, youve done enough charters/lob/trips remotely to now call yourself an OW diver when the reality of it is divers who travel TO dive particular spots are generally always with a local guide.........????????

If your basing your argument on having proficiency in all environments do you either tag along behind a diver if he/she continues their interest and starts exploring their new found world and then say yes you are now OW or do you forbid them to dive outside of a resort environment until who is satisfied? How would you intend to police this and its legal ramifications should PADI or any other certifying agency take it onboard - isnt it pretty much the same thing as the PADI scuba diver card?

How would resort dive centre instructors tell who is going to take the bit between their teeth and really get into diving or will be booking the same room and coming with the same friends to dive the same spot next year?. For that matter shouldnt all dive masters then be experienced in all environments before they are allowed to sign off people as OW?

 

[DevonDiver]

The issue of changing dive environments is easily rectified. An existing process exists for this. PADI call it the 'Discover Local Diving' (DLD) - a formal introduction to the techniques, hazards and other issues applicable in a given environment. Many other agencies offer something similar. Many dive shops/instructors will offer an informal variant too.

Moving between dive environment 'A' and dive environment 'B' has two main factors;

1) Different diving procedures. Whilst core diving skills remain identical, there may be differences is boat operations/types and, as frequently mentioned already, differences in supervision and support. Procedural differences might place more emphasis on self-navigation, or may involve unfamiliar techniques like negative entries or the use of DSMB. To be honest, the 'DLD' doesn't absolutely rectify deficits in this - especially in regards to the issue of supervision/guiding (where divemasters would take responsibility for specialist techniques in some areas, but not others).

2) Different equipment. Most noticeable when transitioning from warm to cold water diving; the use of thicker wetsuits, drysuits, DSMBs, torches etc require further training for the diver to be competent with specific equipment necessary for local diving. Less critical when transitioning from cold to warm water, but local conditions may require equipment such as reef hooks etc. Equipment specific requirements are typically dealt with via supplementary specialty training; i.e. a drysuit course.

 

[DCBC]

So whos going to say yes, youve done enough charters/lob/trips remotely to now call yourself an OW diver when the reality of it is divers who travel TO dive particular spots are generally always with a local guide.........????????

If your basing your argument on having proficiency in all environments do you either tag along behind a diver if he/she continues their interest and starts exploring their new found world and then say yes you are now OW or do you forbid them to dive outside of a resort environment until who is satisfied? How would you intend to police this and its legal ramifications should PADI or any other certifying agency take it onboard - isnt it pretty much the same thing as the PADI scuba diver card?

How would resort dive centre instructors tell who is going to take the bit between their teeth and really get into diving or will be booking the same room and coming with the same friends to dive the same spot next year?. For that matter shouldnt all dive masters then be experienced in all environments before they are allowed to sign off people as OW?

The initial "Resort certification" would be designed with supervised diving in-mind. An OW program (or whatever the 'new program' would be called) would be designed to be more comprehensive. The World Underwater Federation places some restrictions (regarding supervision/Buddy requirements, night/day, etc.) on the first two programs. All have a depth limitation, based on training/experience. BSAC is much the same.

The training that's required to look at the fish with a DM in ideal conditions, is somewhat different to those necessary to assess a dive site with wave, currents, tidal flow and surf and conduct a dive safely without supervision. I think that that's all that I'm saying. I believe that Agency Standards (whether it's PADI, NAUI...) are insufficient to provide most Students with the skill-sets they require to dive with a Buddy in unsupervised conditions. This is however, just my opinion.

 

[Wingy]

I totally agree OW doesnt prepare you for assessing currents etc - I did mine through LDS not a resort but have met many people who get OW certified while on holidays so we all agree more education is better but what happens to a person a getting certified in one country going on vacation the next year and asking to upgrade to OW non resort restricted at another countries resort? how would they prove they were ready to do more without the french system of check dives ? just curious on how this could work.

 

[Bob DBF]

If I was 'King of PADI', I'd make fundamental changes to the system. That said, I'm not factoring to preserving market share, profitability or keep share-holders happy...

I would down-grade all of the current core recreational qualifications (versus recommended limits/supposed outcomes)...and add a level.

- Scuba Diver would be scrapped in toto.

- Open Water Diver would inherit the Scuba Diver limits: 12m with supervision only (supervision being the most essential attribute). The training would remain unchanged.

- Advanced Open Water Diver would become 18m/60ft without supervision. It would be extended to six (6) dives; of which mandatory dives would be navigation, self-rescue (module stolen from the Rescue Diver course), PPB and an initial review dive that assessed/remediated basic OW skills. The performance standards of those three dives would reflect an assessment of both core diving (OW) skills at an improved level and specific progressive skills relative to the dive activity. PPB would have tangible and higher-level standards for assessing buoyancy, trim, weighting and propulsion.

- Rescue Diver would receive additional training elements associated with 'narcosis management' and 'DCI avoidance'. Qualification as Rescue Diver would permit a recommended depth limit increase to 30m/100ft.

- Deep Diver would permit depth increase to 40m/130ft. It would focus heavily upon precision dive planning, gas management, emergency decompression and the use of redundant air sources (which would be compulsory in training below 30m/100ft). There would also be an intensive review of air-sharing and other protocols.

- All courses would start with a formal assessment dive of prerequisite skills (those stated skills that form a necessary foundation for training to improve upon). Core (OW) skills would also be assessed in that session - with incrementally higher standards than the previous level of training. This would, in effect, motivate trainee divers to practice and improve upon their skills after training had been completed at each level.​

Sounds good however, it isn't the knuckleheads taking the class that produce poor divers. Without a top down change which demotes substandard instructors and holds the rest accountable to higher standards, you are just insuring that everyone becomes an AOW out of class. It has happened before, OW used to be a respected certification.

Making or changing certification descriptions is easy, even I could do it, holding an entire Agency to higher standards is a lot tougher proposition. The certification standards are not necessarily the problem, the Instructor and the agency he represents are.



Bob
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"If you don't like it, go on the internet and complain." Brian Griffin

 

[Tigerman]

...
How would resort dive centre instructors tell who is going to take the bit between their teeth and really get into diving or will be booking the same room and coming with the same friends to dive the same spot next year?.

So what youre saying is that EITHER you take diving serious OR you go resort diving once a year?
I claim theire not mutually exclusive whatosever and resort diving is a pleasant break in my freeze your ass off half the year diving..

 

[islanddream]

I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion (probably because I'm a prof and can see that whether you're teaching business subjects or diving, you are still dealing with the individual student who either puts in the effort to master the topic/skill or not) and hope it continues. It's good to see the discussion from the student and instructor side.

I'm close to having 100 dives under my weight belt (not many compared to most of you). My husband and I are just now feeling comfortable in diving on our own. No matter whether a person is OW or AOW certified, I believe it takes many dives to become confident in one's own skills and that of their buddy's. It also takes a few "mishaps" to believe in yourself that you can deal with adversity under water. Diving with a DM has been helpful for me. I've learned a great deal from them. I've also learned a great deal by diving with people who have hundreds of dives and still don't think they know everything. To me, becoming a competent diver requires many dives, continuous education, humility, and diving with people who have a great respect for the underwater world.

 

[Wingy]

So what youre saying is that EITHER you take diving serious OR you go resort diving once a year?
I claim theire not mutually exclusive whatosever and resort diving is a pleasant break in my freeze your ass off half the year diving..

LOL no, no im just confused as to who gets the final say on what constitutes a resort diver as opposed to the guys getting their Cards to go on charters as mentioned in the OP..im one of the latter..but im not a guy

 

[Peter Guy]

Islanddream -- you nailed it.

Formal training (i.e., classes) can only go so far -- you just have to go out and do it. Go diving, get comfortable with what you are doing (and the gear in which you are doing it) and then up the ante on something. Even the best instruction only takes a diver so far -- then it is up to the individual.

I am sure that many (most?) of the people who are "certified as open water divers" come away from their classes with a very minimal skill set (see various posts about the tropical dive factories). However, IF, after doing even these classes, the people want to do more than just a "simple guided tropical reef dive" there are paths for them. They just need to want to take them -- and my guess is that the vast majority just don't want to go there. OK, they've "been there, done that, have the T-shirt." Is that so wrong? And yes, there wouldn't be any problem with certifying them as "Resort Divers" because, really, that's all they'll ever want to be.

 

[Tigerman]

...
And yes, there wouldn't be any problem with certifying them as "Resort Divers" because, really, that's all they'll ever want to be.

Dont give PADI ideas.. Cause if you DID make ow into some kinda "resort diver" cert you bet your ass youd then have to do resort diver before you could do "actual diver" which would be 2 dives in a different enviroment under instructor supervision, of course with a required crewpack and cert fee..