Should Padi OW be called Resort Diver?

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DCBC wrote
You continue to misrepresent things that you know nothing about. You have NO idea what I tell my students; so don't pretend that you do. Please, think about what you are about to say before you say it. If you do, prepare to back-up with facts, not inaccurate opinion.


Little testier than normal this afternoon?:wink:

_____________________________________

BTW, the "Go out and get your a$$es handed to you comment" was, in fact, a "directive" to go out and explore and expand our horizons. That particular instructor wanted us to get out of the rut we had fallen into, use our skills and challenge ourselves. But, just maybe, you had to be there -- and I was.
 
I can't figure out if this is a discussion between people who teach scuba diving or plain ol' divers like me. If you teach diving then it's up to you to teach precisely what is expected of the association which you represent. I totally agree with what RJP said. When I took my OW course in Puerta Vallarta, I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know any divers or anything about diving other than what I saw on TV and the movies. I didn't get my book until I arrived so I couldn't read up on what I was going to learn. Once there, my husband and I spend many hours in class prior to our dives in the ocean to get certified. I believe I was taught well; however, I was a very diligent student. The student must take responsibility to read, watch the videos, do the quizzes, etc. since the instructor isn't with her 24/7 during the certification process. And, yes, I'm PADI certified. And, yes, I was taught how to plan a dive and dive my plan.

I truly don't like the idea of changing the depth levels for different certifications. I'm AOW and want to dive to 130 ft. if there's something I want to see. (I've only done that once since I feel I see a lot more interesting stuff at more shallow depths.) Plus I believe that the depth was set by people much smarter than I when the AOW restrictions were set.

Those of you who are instructors must see many students who are OW certified going for their AOW certs and shouldn't. Yes, you can blame it on the prior instructor, but it's up to the student to do what it takes to perform to their cert level. Does it mean diving more? Rereading the book? Going on ScubaBoard for more diving information? Taking a refresher course? Watching OW videos? We had about a five year delay between dives. We went to a local dive shop and took a refresher course before heading out for a diving vacation in Cozumel. I'm so glad we did because I had forgotten stuff I needed to remember! It certainly made the trip much more enjoyable.

OK....DM guided dives. Hey, if you dive in some parts of the world you're REQUIRED to have a DM with you. Period. I don't particularly enjoy following a bunch of people who are following the DM. We visit the same dive resort in Coz and once the DM sees us, he let's us do our own thing. He knows we are competent divers with all the safety gear (sausages, mirrors, whistles, etc.), and he knows we stay with our buddies. I feel it's my responsibility to be a safe diver, not the DMs.

I'm a college prof and continually tell my students "it's your responsibility to learn what I'm teaching you....I'll give you the tools....you need to use them." (Of course some students pay no attention to this.) I believe the same philosophy holds true in diving.
 
Something has been ticking away at the back of my lil brain.
This ALL refers to freshly minted divers NOT guys who have their card cos they need it to do charter dives etc.
From what I've seen,experienced and heard the Padi open water dive course doesn't equip you to go out with your buddy and run your own dive. According to Padi it does but reality seems to be totally different.
Once someone has a few dives under their belt and/or have done the "advanced" course they have the skills needed to dive proficiently. Their weighting is about right,they have good Boyancy control etc.
On that basis I just wonder if the Padi OW shouldn't be called resort diver and you dive with a dive master as a minimum.
Maybee I'm overthinking this.
Someone thats taught diving IN A RESORT is probably much more a resort diver than someone thats been taught to dive in a drysuit above the polar circle..
Alteast at the time theire just certified and about to do their first post-certification dive..

I´ve had over 100 dives before I took my AOW. Most in cold water with dry-suit, all in the ocean. I believe I was capable of diving without a DM.

It dosn´t matter whether you´re a OW, AOW or RD. What matters is what you actually know. The plastic is just proof of that knowledge and experience.
Actually, Id say the card is more a proof that you once learned it rather than of you having the knowledge..
 
I can't figure out if this is a discussion between people who teach scuba diving or plain ol' divers like me. If you teach diving then it's up to you to teach precisely what is expected of the association which you represent. I totally agree with what RJP said. When I took my OW course in Puerta Vallarta, I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know any divers or anything about diving other than what I saw on TV and the movies. I didn't get my book until I arrived so I couldn't read up on what I was going to learn. Once there, my husband and I spend many hours in class prior to our dives in the ocean to get certified. I believe I was taught well; however, I was a very diligent student. The student must take responsibility to read, watch the videos, do the quizzes, etc. since the instructor isn't with her 24/7 during the certification process. And, yes, I'm PADI certified. And, yes, I was taught how to plan a dive and dive my plan.

I truly don't like the idea of changing the depth levels for different certifications. I'm AOW and want to dive to 130 ft. if there's something I want to see. (I've only done that once since I feel I see a lot more interesting stuff at more shallow depths.) Plus I believe that the depth was set by people much smarter than I when the AOW restrictions were set.

Those of you who are instructors must see many students who are OW certified going for their AOW certs and shouldn't. Yes, you can blame it on the prior instructor, but it's up to the student to do what it takes to perform to their cert level. Does it mean diving more? Rereading the book? Going on ScubaBoard for more diving information? Taking a refresher course? Watching OW videos? We had about a five year delay between dives. We went to a local dive shop and took a refresher course before heading out for a diving vacation in Cozumel. I'm so glad we did because I had forgotten stuff I needed to remember! It certainly made the trip much more enjoyable.

OK....DM guided dives. Hey, if you dive in some parts of the world you're REQUIRED to have a DM with you. Period. I don't particularly enjoy following a bunch of people who are following the DM. We visit the same dive resort in Coz and once the DM sees us, he let's us do our own thing. He knows we are competent divers with all the safety gear (sausages, mirrors, whistles, etc.), and he knows we stay with our buddies. I feel it's my responsibility to be a safe diver, not the DMs.

I'm a college prof and continually tell my students "it's your responsibility to learn what I'm teaching you....I'll give you the tools....you need to use them." (Of course some students pay no attention to this.) I believe the same philosophy holds true in diving.

Good post. I agree with most of it. Agree with you & RJP that a lot of beginners have little idea of what the course really should be like. I read the manual for 2 months, did all the KRs/quizzes, etc. and was still not really sure what to expect. At the pool the Instructor introduced the DM and I thought he ranked above her....One has to assume the student knows nothing of the ways of scuba (but hopefully has been in & around water a lot). I may disagree somewhat on your depth point. It's a good idea to take the Deep Diver course prior to going below 100'. I know OW divers have been doing this for half a century and some oldtimers no doubt are as skilled or better diving deep as many pros. I'm just assuming %s are you are better off with the course.
 
I for one wish a timepiece of any sort became part of the basic equipment in the general standards...

Interesting to hear that from an instructor in Bali. I just bought a wrist computer for my Bali trip, and the lady in the shop in Sydney said it was good I was taking my own, as many of the local operators don't have them on their rental gear. Is this consistent with your experience?
 
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Originally Posted by drrich2
So denying people full OW cert. does limit them in a number of ways, whether they want to be limited or not.
Richard, they either know how to dive unsupervised, or they don't. What's the matter with that? If you certify them to dive unsupervised, they should be able to do this safely. If not, what is it that you're suggesting?

Not sure if copying & pasting my post you quoted and yours will work. Anyway...

My point is 2-fold:

1.) There are degrees - while a person may not be ready for independent buddy diving under some conditions some people think an OW diver should be (e.g.: charter boat dives off coastal California with no provided dive guide, basically just a taxi service, requiring divers to navigate & return to the boat unassisted), that same diver might be fine to buddy dive in a local gravel quarry or shore dive the better west coast sites of Bonaire.

2.) People want cert.s that let them buddy dive independently if they choose to do so under a given set of conditions. Proposals to restrict the OW cert. to supervised diving only, or at least the cert. as it is taught to many, seems geared to deny the divers this freedom to choose, since quarry owners and charter boat op.s will not provide them services without a supervisor in the water, whether they want (or need in a given set of conditions) one or not.

In the real world, an OW cert. is often, for practical purposes, a 'license to dive.' A diver with an OW cert. has a lot more options than a diver with a Scuba Diver cert. in terms of quarry & charter boat offerings.

Richard.
 
Nope, not consistent with the shop I work at. We actually lend, yes lend, not rent, dive computers to divers joining us. The rationale behind this is that it makes no sense for a diver to dive without a timepiece, especially in deep dive sites where there can be strong down currents, such as those you may encounter in Bali. At the end of the day, certified divers are responsible for their own safety, not their Divemasters, even if many resort divers assume otherwise.
The lady at the shop in Sydney is not wrong either. Most shops around Asia do not even offer an option to rent a computer, nor timepiece to their day-trippers. This is especially true of large cattle/factory shops where the priority has shifted away from safety or service and towards money-making. Like many large businesses, large dive centres consider safety when compliance is a legal requirement or failure to provide safety would end up being bad business...
The best is for divers to communicate about this with prospective diveshops. It's amazing how much info you can gather when exchanging a few emails about topics that matter most instead of focusing merely on price like 90% of resort divers do...

---------- Post added May 19th, 2013 at 11:54 AM ----------

Last post was meant as a reply to this:
Interesting to hear that from an instructor in Bali. I just bought a wrist computer for my Bali trip, and the lady in the shop in Sydney said it was good I was taking my own, as many of the local operators don't have them on their rental gear. Is this consistent with your experience?
 
If you teach diving then it's up to you to teach precisely what is expected of the association which you represent.

There are some issues with that - which is what tends to skew the perspectives of the experienced instructors contributing to this debate.

Firstly, agencies tend to provide instructors with minimum standards governing tuition. These standards represent the bare minimum of training to be supplied on a given course, couple with an indication of the performance standards that a student should attain in that standardized skill-set. Whilst seemingly clear-cut, this does cause problems.

Those minimum standards do not take account of skill demands that may be appropriate on a local/regional basis. As a consequence, agencies do permit instructors to supplement courses to reflect local training necessities. However, performance standards may not be applied by the instructor for any supplemental training given (i.e. you cannot 'fail' the course if you don't master those additional non-syllabus skills).

Furthermore, based only on the 'bare minimum' syllabus, it is entirely possible to re-interpret the provision of training to the lowest common denominator applicable for the local diving practices. Where local practices always include the provision of a divemaster to guide and 'nanny' the divers, it is possible to re-define training expectations to a state where the performance requirement of certain skills is diminished to virtually zero. This tends to be reflected in a deterioration of developing precisely those skills that enable self-sufficient, unsupervised diving; navigation, dive planning, buddy safety and even situational awareness.

Typically, in temperate water diving locations, the normal practice is to dive without supervision. Divers charter boat spaces as a 'taxi' to the dive site - where they will dive unsupervised with a buddy. Instructors in those locations tend to provide tuition with that requirement in mind. In contrast, diving practices in tropical water locations to be heavily supervised. Instructors in those locations also provide tuition with that fact in mind.

We have a situation where regional variances cause some courses to be 'dumbed down', whilst other courses are 'beefed up'. However, students on either course receive the same qualification upon completion. What they do not receive is equal competency.

Those of you who are instructors must see many students who are OW certified going for their AOW certs and shouldn't. Yes, you can blame it on the prior instructor, but it's up to the student to do what it takes to perform to their cert level.

The world does seem simpler when theoretically perfect. It would be perfect if every student exited training with an ingrained respect for the need to refresh, retain or even progress, their core skill-set. Sadly, this theoretical ideal does not reflect the vast majority of divers' mindsets. That is a fact of life.

When setting restrictions or limits upon diving qualifications, there has to be a modicum of reality. As John Stuart Mill said; "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..". A similar notion was presented by the philosopher Jeremy Bentham: "It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right and wrong".

The vast majority of divers seek tuition in tropical diving locations, under minimal (or fast-track) timescales. They are taught in the expectation of remaining professionally supervised when diving, once qualified. The 'dumbed down' training course. The scope and refinement of their skill set reflects the minimal demands of that local environment - warm clear water, with no personal responsibility for independent navigation, contingency planning or dive logistics.

Sadly, the scope of diving offered by a given qualification has to be set globally. Mill's and Bentham's utilitariannotions have to apply to the scope of diving qualifications. Whilst this may limit personal freedom, and/or short-change those whose qualification competency reflects an above-average level - it remains necessary as prudent guidance, protecting the health and safety of the majority. Of course, these limitations remain only 'recommended' and there are no 'scuba police' to enforce the limit of qualifications. Where local variation in qualification competency exists, it can equally be reflected in local policies exercised by the diving community itself.

I truly don't like the idea of changing the depth levels for different certifications. I'm AOW and want to dive to 130 ft. if there's something I want to see.

As mentioned, utilitarianism versus personal freedom.

This is, perhaps, one reason why a discussion on amending or re-structuring courses is a good thing. The creation of a 'Resort Diver' course would reflect a reality for the majority of divers. Differentiating a, more-limited, 'Resort Diver' course from a more robust 'full-diving qualification' would prevent the needs of the many stifling the personal liberty of the few.

My opinions on down-grading course limitations purely reflect a notional ability to improve quality of training against an elongated period of experience development - but holds true to the concept of training meeting demands.
 
CMAS and BSAC (the World's oldest diving certification organizations) require entry level divers to be supervised (dive with someone with more experience). Given what's required today for certification, I think that this is a reasonable expectation.
I can respect these types of limitations if local conditions warrant them. I don't believe my PADI OW training was wholly lacking, but afterwards I furthered my instruction, dived locally, and travelled seeking more tropical diving experiencess. Within 6 months I had completed 50 dives in various conditions, all under the 'supervision' of a dive pro ie. an instructor during con-ed, a DM leading 'resort' dives, or buddying up locally with a diver who had a DM cert or greater.

And I continued diving in this fashion for another 7 months and 50 more tanks. This was however how I chose to enter the sport, and I'm quite grateful for the mentoring that I received along the way.
 
My point is 2-fold:

1.) There are degrees - while a person may not be ready for independent buddy diving under some conditions some people think an OW diver should be (e.g.: charter boat dives off coastal California with no provided dive guide, basically just a taxi service, requiring divers to navigate & return to the boat unassisted), that same diver might be fine to buddy dive in a local gravel quarry or shore dive the better west coast sites of Bonaire.

Then why would there be a problem if their certification provided an accurate representation of their abilities?

2.) People want cert.s that let them buddy dive independently if they choose to do so under a given set of conditions. Proposals to restrict the OW cert. to supervised diving only, or at least the cert. as it is taught to many, seems geared to deny the divers this freedom to choose, since quarry owners and charter boat op.s will not provide them services without a supervisor in the water, whether they want (or need in a given set of conditions) one or not.

It's not a matter what people want. It's about what is reasonable. If the Diver doesn't have the skill-sets to dive safely unsupervised. Why should an Instructor give him a C-Card that indicates that he can?

Generally speaking, DCO require Divers to have a Buddy (unless a Solo card is produced, but Solo diving isn't always allowed). The DCO has to take reasonable precautions to ensure that they are not placing their Clients into a hazardous situation. This usually includes, but is not limited to a pre-dive briefing on any anticipated hazards and in some cases a DM and/or Guide. Having a card that requires the diver to dive with a more experienced diver shouldn't be a problem.

As discussed, people can do anything they want if they are the only one's involved. When others become involved in the activity however (Agency, Instructor, DCO), the parameters of operation must be reasonable for the circumstances present. When I have denied a Diver participation in a dive to a specific dive site in the past, it had nothing to do with "the divers freedom to choose," but my legal responsibility to take steps to assure his safety (reasonable under the circumstances).

---------- Post added May 19th, 2013 at 09:19 AM ----------


I can respect these types of limitations if local conditions warrant them. I don't believe my PADI OW training was wholly lacking, but afterwards I furthered my instruction, dived locally, and travelled seeking more tropical diving experiencess. Within 6 months I had completed 50 dives in various conditions, all under the 'supervision' of a dive pro ie. an instructor during con-ed, a DM leading 'resort' dives, or buddying up locally with a diver who had a DM cert or greater.

And I continued diving in this fashion for another 7 months and 50 more tanks. This was however how I chose to enter the sport, and I'm quite grateful for the mentoring that I received along the way.

It would appear that if your initial PADI OW was restricted to supervised diving, you would not have been adversely affected. I believe that regardless of the location, a diver's certification should accurately reflect that persons ability/capability.
 
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