Should Padi OW be called Resort Diver?

[RayKay]

I get where you are coming from after seeing some "resort divers" myself but I will say that not all PADI OW instructors or courses are going to be the same. The fact is that PADI is a huge organization and therefore many people are going to have received their OW certification from them, but that does not mean that all those divers are alike, nor is the quality of instruction the same across the board. As others pointed out, it highly depends on the instructor (and the shop itself and how they adhere to PADI standards). There is a big difference, IMO, from someone who goes on vacation, decides on a whim to sign up for an OW course, finds a PADI shop that is really not exactly in conformance with PADI-standards, and has their certificate in a handful of days along with the other 10 bumbling people in their class, and someone who does their training back at home, in a small class, over several weeks, with a qualified and experienced instructor and with a very good instructor to student ratio. I don't think the former has usually received proper instruction, nor training that is truly in accordance to PADI standards. I have witnessed pool classes where students did not even bother to do the skills when they were supposed to, and the instructor was not even making sure they were each doing them....and I will say this was not just in PADI classes. Further, it is so rushed that they don't have the time to debrief after dives to figure out where to improve, or have time to practice their skills before being certified.

I have seen plenty of divers with their OW certification (or more advanced certifications) from other non-PADI agencies who seem FAR more unsafe than PADI-certified OW divers I know. It is my belief that someone is either safety-conscious and safety-driven or not. You can teach someone safe diving skills, and pass on techniques, but it is up to the individual and their personality as to how far they take that to heart. Also, some people just are inherently safer people than others. People have different motivations. As someone who is concerned about my safety and does recognize the dangers of diving, it was important to me to have training with a very good instructor and to get a quality training course. Someone on vacation who just wants to get in the water and look at the pretty fish before they go back home may not have the same criteria.

I was able to go through both the PADI course AND the NAUI OW course. I was certified by PADI. I was far more confident in my PADI instructor's skills and instruction than the NAUI one. I have also done both agencies advanced courses and other specialty courses. What I have seen is that it really comes down to the instructor and the individual student/diver.

And if your course was only 3 hours long, you had woefully poor instruction, which was NOT to PADI standards.

 

[supergaijin]

I love Scuba Diver courses and wish more people would consider them. Less than 12m is where a whole bunch of beginner divers should be- in reality they're having 18m dives planned for them.

Any beginner diver from any agency will lack skills if they simply don't dive regularly. How long is the half-life of a 3-4 day beginner diving course? The (insert) agency matters little in this regard.

I took a kite-surfing course in Thailand a few years ago. I was up and riding... and falling, and it was all good fun. Now could I realistically go kitesurfing with a bunch of guys who did the same course... but then continued with the sport in the meantime? Of course not.

No doubt this will go on for 10 pages, but the OP is simply trolling IMO.

 

[Peter Guy]

a. I given out several Scuba Diver certs -- either because the student was going on a trip and couldn't do dives 3 & 4 prior to the trip or because we just agreed this was what it should be. One of the advantages of doing the Scuba Diver cert, as opposed to a referral, is that the "upgrade" to OW can be done at any time (with the appropriate "further training", i.e., CW 3 & 4, final exam) as opposed to just 12 months (referral time).

b. One thing I think "we" keep forgetting in this never ending "The course isn't sufficient" discourse is that most people are pretty savvy as to what they can and should do as opposed to what they shouldn't or can't do. I'm sure there are a few people who, once they have their OW card, think "I can go dive anywhere, including in 5 foot seas, 28 degree water in Nova Scotia where I have to swim a half-mile to my drop point." But I just don't believe there are many of those people (and pretty clearly the injury stats confirm that).

If someone is trained in the "tropical compressed course" they know, at some level, their training is basic -- just like the "snow bunnies" at Aspen know they shouldn't do Black Runs at the end of their week of "skiing" down the Bunny slopes. Now we don't rate dives the way ski resorts rate slopes BUT a question or two provides the same information at most dive shops. And every charter operator I've seen has determined the skill level of the patrons and "guided" them appropriately. (Case in point -- last week in Maui, with a shop that was new to me, the DMs watched for a few minutes on dive one and then let us alone -- even commenting later they were very impressed with how the three of us dove (forgot to tell him the three of us had never dived together!). Then, on the next (night) dive, the DM just told us, "Go have fun and be back on the boat at 60 minutes.")

I really think this whole "most scuba training sucks" mentality has gotten out of hand. Yes, btw, I agree that a lot of training sucks (from the buoyancy skills standpoint as in kneeling/standing on the bottom) but from the basic parameters of safety or diving sites appropriately or the customer having a good time with what they can do, I've come to conclude, basic training is mostly sufficient. I WISH IT WAS BETTER -- but most appears to be sufficient for the customer to reach her goals. Most just want to ski the Green Slopes and have a hot toddy at the end of the day.

YMMV

 

[DevonDiver]

Peter - you do need to travel to some of the 'sausage factory' hotspots. It gives a different perspective on the 'average' quality of diver training.

When you've got a 6 month/100 dive instructor...teaching 8 OW students on a 2-day course...running 3 courses per week...assisted (if at all) by a 1 month/60 dive divemaster... I've even seen courses 'doubled-up' - that's 16 students with 2 instructors, run together...at a dive center that processes 15,000 certification per year...with OW courses costing ~$150...

...kinda skews that 'median' of quality globally..

 

[LanceRiley]

Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Everyone seems to complain about the monkeys they pay for...

Anyway... what's the rush to 100ft? Money shouldn't get you to 100ft... competency in the appropriate skill-set should.



Agreed - no changes to the depth limitation at that level, but a significant change to the training itself. The Deep course as it stands (on paper - if just regurgitated by a drone instructor) is entirely insufficient to develop an appropriate deep diving skill-set. IMHO.

Lighten up... the pesos isn't easy to come by over here..But yes I agree.. competency and skill should be the factor to determine how and where you would dive.

 

[DCBC]

Something has been ticking away at the back of my lil brain.
This ALL refers to freshly minted divers NOT guys who have their card cos they need it to do charter dives etc.
From what I've seen,experienced and heard the Padi open water dive course doesn't equip you to go out with your buddy and run your own dive. According to Padi it does but reality seems to be totally different.

Once someone has a few dives under their belt and/or have done the "advanced" course they have the skills needed to dive proficiently. Their weighting is about right,they have good Boyancy control etc.

On that basis I just wonder if the Padi OW shouldn't be called resort diver and you dive with a dive master as a minimum.
Maybee I'm overthinking this.

Although there are many Instructors who turn-out good divers (from all Agencies), I think that the "Standards" are insufficient to prepare a Diver to dive unsupervised. It's my belief that Agencies have based their Standards / Minimum Standards on what is required for a resort diver to dive in supervised conditions.

CMAS and BSAC (the World's oldest diving certification organizations) require entry level divers to be supervised (dive with someone with more experience). Given what's required today for certification, I think that this is a reasonable expectation.

Again I want to point out that an Instructor can turn out a safe diver for local conditions. The question is how many do? We've all seen the extent of new diver competence. Would you want these people to dive unsupervised with a member of your family? Generally speaking, I think not.

Every Agency has bad Instructors. There are good Instructors who bend to the demands of their LDS or Resort. All divers who are certified are not competent/safe to dive unsupervised (some not at all). Should a diver with an initial certification be allowed to dive unsupervised? Not with today's Standards being what they are...

P.S.

Dive Instructors: This isn't personal, so please don't take it that way. Look at the situation World-wide, not just your class and the competence of the Divers you feel you turn-out. This is not directed solely to the PADI's OW Diver Program!

 

[clownfishsydney]

While some people do come out of dive courses as fully competent divers able to do reasonably difficult dives with another of similar experience, many are totally useless. The fact is that some instructors do pass people who should never (ever) become divers. In our club we have had people who were so clueless that we (non-instructors) had to "teach" them how to dive.

As to the original suggestion, I have thought for a long time that an OW card should have an expiry date of (say) two years. If you do a certain number of dives in that two year period, then you qualify for a card that does not expire. It is ridiculous that someone does a course and then 10 years later they do the first dives out of their course. It does happen. I would love a dollar for every person who told me they were a scuba diver and then when you talk to them, you find out that they qualified 20 years ago and have never dived since. They still consider themselves to be a scuba diver!

 

[DevonDiver]

Lighten up... the pesos isn't easy to come by over here..But yes I agree.. competency and skill should be the factor to determine how and where you would dive.

Agreed... money is an issue. It's taken me 22 years to get the qualifications I now possess. I've seen other people throw down their credit cards and reach the same levels in 12 months. Go figure who's the better diver for it...

That said, the crux still remains, why the rush into depth?

I can't help but think this issue stems from the modern materialistic and 'instant-gratification' culture. People want gratification now, today, immediately... so they prefer a system where they can throw down cash and get a green-light to do what they want. The trouble is that deep diving safely demands training, skills and experience - the accumulation of which is an anathema to those who want instant-gratification in the scuba diving.

Yeah... my proposed ideal system (just my ideal) demands more training per depth progression. It also demands continuance and improvement of core skills throughout that process. More training means more money.... but hey, balanced out over a realistic time-frame, with plenty of experience building dives in-between, you get plenty of time to save up.

Time and money = commitment. Since when did commitment become a negative issue?

 

[drrich2]

Regardless of skill level, I do see a large percentage of divers that want to be led by the dive guide. Not sure why. Maybe I should ask?

Some people never get good at navigation (even on land & with practice), and even those who do may prefer to focus their attention on the wildlife & reef rather than split their attention trying to multi-task situational awareness/navigation & get back to a boat in unfamiliar territory.

Analogous situation: look at all the people who know how to drive who take bus tours in strange places. Cruise ships make a lot of money off it. If I went to New York City today, I would NOT rent a car, grab a GPS and 'go.' Doesn't mean I can't drive back home.

I've seen a number of posts where paternalistic types want to deny OW divers the option to dive without a professional accompanying them. This is not necessary, nor does it consider conditions.

I came out of OW training less refined than some of you would prefer. So I stuck to a local quarry back home, and 'aquarium-like' Caribbean locations. Over time, I've taken more courses and done more dives. The option to dive without a professional lets me get more dives. I picked up an SDI Solo cert. so I can do more dives at the quarry (my wife is OW cert.'d but she acts like going to the quarry is going to a beating) or on vacation.

Others made the point that a ridiculously awful OW diver who can't buddy dive in idea conditions isn't up to the OW spec.; it's not that the spec. is inadequate.

Now, you could probably change the 'Scuba Diver' cert. to 'Resort Diver,' and use it for those dabbling vacation divers who never develop independence (and some may not want it), but you need to let them dive deeper (at least after a few dives) - I'm talking like at least 60 feet, probably 80. Why?

Because of the Caribbean charter boat trip realities. Yes, I've been on shallower boat dives - but even those could run maybe 45 to 50 feet. Tourist dives can go a good deal deeper. Restricting people to 40 feet will just lead to routine violations.

Richard.

 

[DCBC]

I've seen a number of posts where paternalistic types want to deny OW divers the option to dive without a professional accompanying them. This is not necessary, nor does it consider conditions. ...The option to dive without a professional lets me get more dives.

If your certification reflected that you had to dive in supervised conditions, what would prevent you from diving unsupervised? Considering you don't need to have a certification card at all to dive, it's not an issue. It does however clearly recommend your safe diving parameters with your current level of training and experience. Should you wish to dive deeper, enter a wreck or cave, you have the choice to do so. It's just not recommended that you do.

Now, you could probably change the 'Scuba Diver' cert. to 'Resort Diver,' and use it for those dabbling vacation divers who never develop independence (and some may not want it), but you need to let them dive deeper (at least after a few dives) - I'm talking like at least 60 feet, probably 80. Why?

Perhaps if the OW program was changed to Resort Diver, the depth restrictions would change as well. The diver would have a requirement to be supervised; which for many divers wouldn't pose a problem.