Should Padi OW be called Resort Diver?
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Tigerman
Contributor
Define "in a while"...
DevonDiver
N/A
That'd be lovely, but probably unworkable. PADI would need an army of external examiners to conduct instructor-independent certifications.
To date, PADI can't even apply external examination/verification to Divemaster level or in specialty instructor training. In fact, verification only happens at two levels - Instructor Examinations and (?) Course Director courses. Even then (for IEs), there seems an abnormally high pass rate...
From my experience (primarily tropical/vacation divers), yes... the vast majority of them do so.
I'd go further.... most of them don't think about whether...or even don't care... whether "everything will automatically come back to them". They just want their 'monies worth' and to go diving...and have fun....and not "waste a day of their holiday in a refresher".
Such sentiments are also seen with alarming frequency here on Scubaboard..
I've noticed this as well. Any idea why this is the case?
chrpai
Contributor
For me? yes.
I dove around 100 dives a year from 2001 - 2005. Had two small kids, wife got metastatic cancer and I stopped diving and gave all my gear away. I didn't dive again until 2010. For me, it was like getting back on a bike.
I did 10-12 dives over the course of a week and then retired again for another two years. This time I bought all new gear (BP/W and long hose), spent about 2 hours in the neighborhood pool working on weight, trim and drills. Then I headed over to Lake Travis with a new buddy and, well, started diving. I'm back up to 100 dives a year again.
Wish I could do more...I didn't need a "refresher" for any of that. My wife on the other hand, well, she'd probably have to take O/W again.
Originally Posted by Peter Guy 
...diving "in a while" really, honestly, believe they can just jump into the water and everything will automatically come back to them?
Please pardon this cross posting:
I suppose it's possible that a Skydiver with a solo certificate could jump off the top of a tall building without a parachute. I do believe however, that even if it was a few years since his last jump, that he would know that what he was doing was technically flawed. That may not stop him from doing so, but it isn't because he doesn't know the rules of Skydiving, or gravity.
Recreational diving isn't brain science. People require three primary things to do it safely: proper and inclusive training (which may be mitigated by supervision), well maintained equipment and the application of common sense. If any of these are lacking, you can't blame one on the other.
Generally people who get trained, do so in the attempt to do it safely (the application of common sense). As they have no point-of-reference, they depend on their Instructor to quantify what this is for any given diving environment. Instructors are led by the certification agencies and often influenced by the LDS (which at times aschews the definition of proper training). If time passes so as to place an individual in a situation where they have forgotten, they will likely seek-out instruction before diving for the same reasons they did in the first-place (it makes sense to them that they this is a requirement).
I don't believe that the majority of "poor diving skills" are attributable to "forgetting how." Too many are certified before the Standards (of the certification Agency) have been met. Too many Divers that are certified to dive "unsupervised" simply don't have the training or experience to do so. It's not consequential that two of the World's oldest and most respected diving Agencies take the same position.
...diving "in a while" really, honestly, believe they can just jump into the water and everything will automatically come back to them?Please pardon this cross posting:
I suppose it's possible that a Skydiver with a solo certificate could jump off the top of a tall building without a parachute. I do believe however, that even if it was a few years since his last jump, that he would know that what he was doing was technically flawed. That may not stop him from doing so, but it isn't because he doesn't know the rules of Skydiving, or gravity.
Recreational diving isn't brain science. People require three primary things to do it safely: proper and inclusive training (which may be mitigated by supervision), well maintained equipment and the application of common sense. If any of these are lacking, you can't blame one on the other.
Generally people who get trained, do so in the attempt to do it safely (the application of common sense). As they have no point-of-reference, they depend on their Instructor to quantify what this is for any given diving environment. Instructors are led by the certification agencies and often influenced by the LDS (which at times aschews the definition of proper training). If time passes so as to place an individual in a situation where they have forgotten, they will likely seek-out instruction before diving for the same reasons they did in the first-place (it makes sense to them that they this is a requirement).
I don't believe that the majority of "poor diving skills" are attributable to "forgetting how." Too many are certified before the Standards (of the certification Agency) have been met. Too many Divers that are certified to dive "unsupervised" simply don't have the training or experience to do so. It's not consequential that two of the World's oldest and most respected diving Agencies take the same position.
dm_dave
New
I think your question is really a different question in disguise. "Are all Open Water Diver certifications equal?" The answer, of course, is no. Each individual performs the required skills at different levels and competency. The biggest variable is the instructor, and then the individual. I was certified in temperate water (55-65F) and did both shore and boat dives. I don't think a recently certified "Resort diver" should attempt a wreck dive at 50ft in temperate water (with a dive buddy of similar experience), for example.
To answer your question; NO. A PADI open water diver meets the ISO 24801-2:2007 standard for an autonomous diver. Any PADI instructor that fails to meet this standard is in danger of losing his/her instructor rating under PADI. The QA department takes seriously any situation in which an OWD is certified without meeting the PADI and, by extension, ISO standards.
PADI is not a perfect organization as it involves "people" certifying "people" in an activity that has a fair amount of health risk. When you have an agency certifying almost 1 million people per year, it becomes a significant task to enforce the QA standards. For example, an error rate of 1% is 10,000 divers, 1/10th of 1% being 1000 divers. Obviously PADI would prefer this to be 0 but statistically this is an unreasonable expectation.
To answer your question; NO. A PADI open water diver meets the ISO 24801-2:2007 standard for an autonomous diver. Any PADI instructor that fails to meet this standard is in danger of losing his/her instructor rating under PADI. The QA department takes seriously any situation in which an OWD is certified without meeting the PADI and, by extension, ISO standards.
PADI is not a perfect organization as it involves "people" certifying "people" in an activity that has a fair amount of health risk. When you have an agency certifying almost 1 million people per year, it becomes a significant task to enforce the QA standards. For example, an error rate of 1% is 10,000 divers, 1/10th of 1% being 1000 divers. Obviously PADI would prefer this to be 0 but statistically this is an unreasonable expectation.
DevonDiver
N/A
It'd guess one, or more, of the following:
1) Entry-level training fails to stress hazards of diving and need for risk assessment (too many 'high-fives', not enough safety message).
2) Ill-Informed cynicism of the benefits of training versus cost ('put another dollar in' skepticism).
3) No subsequent assessment of core skills in the scuba diving continued education program.
4) Increase of apathy and low-expectations of novice diver skill set amongst the scuba community and industry.
CT-Rich
Contributor
I came back to diving after being away for a few years. Did I do a refresher course? No.
did I hop back in the water immediately and expect it all to come completely back? No.
When I came back I was reviewing a much of my old training material and I had been skin diving for many years. I did take a one day in pool refresher class where I reviewed some skills, but it was mostly for checking out gear and trim. Most of my diving has since been to log more hours and update my kit to current style. I have held off on some types of dives because I am not where I want to be for those types of dives. when my comfort level gets there, I will start doing those also. Different divers are going to approach returning to the sport exactly the same way. I never really left it completely (just spent several years free diving) so I never lost that comfort level in the water. Others may need more review, especially if they did not have a particularly deep understand of the sport or the same level of experience when they left.
did I hop back in the water immediately and expect it all to come completely back? No.
When I came back I was reviewing a much of my old training material and I had been skin diving for many years. I did take a one day in pool refresher class where I reviewed some skills, but it was mostly for checking out gear and trim. Most of my diving has since been to log more hours and update my kit to current style. I have held off on some types of dives because I am not where I want to be for those types of dives. when my comfort level gets there, I will start doing those also. Different divers are going to approach returning to the sport exactly the same way. I never really left it completely (just spent several years free diving) so I never lost that comfort level in the water. Others may need more review, especially if they did not have a particularly deep understand of the sport or the same level of experience when they left.
AfterDark
Contributor
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