Should PADI change Advanced Open Water Diver Standards?

[String]

Option for both is missing on the survey.

Renaming it to "Open Water Module 2" or "Open Water Upgrade" may be more descriptive.

I'd like to see modules like PPB made compulsory along with more stuff about dive planning.

 

[garyfotodiver]

With SSI's Advanced and Master Diver as well as PADI's Master Diver, there is no actual class involved.

Walter, you like to cut the quote, so I will also. Read the SSI info. One takes, as you pointed out earlier, CLASSES. The combination of classes is a COURSE. At the completion of the course, one who has successfully fulfilled the requirements receives certification (diploma, certificate, CARD). One may or may not agree with the requirements; nevertheless, it is a recognition of attaining an additional amount of learning.

Most everyone knows that two divers with the same number of dives, under similar conditions, with similar equipment may very well have vastly different levels of competency. That is not the issue.

Some of us believe that taking an additional number of dives in the presence of an instructor is not necessarily a positive learning experience. It is not the instructor, but rather the material presented for study. It is also the background that one brings to the course of instruction. These are the things that matter.

 

[Azza]

Renaming it to "Open Water Module 2" may be more descriptive.

I could go along with that even just to stop the moaners. People forget the course is called advanced OPEN WATER and not advanced diver. Of course people who hold that card like to think of themselves as advanced divers so that probably the biggest problem

I'd like to see modules like PPB made compulsory along with more stuff about dive planning.

I would like to see PPB taught in OW. I do make all my AOW students do the PPB module but many don't, and really we shouldn't have too...but hey a refresher every now and then never goes amiss

Oh and to the guys who mentioned the diving skills and instructor licence to learn thingy (Cant really be bothered going back to find and quote it:11...you are right, I apologize... i didn't read it properly and i feel suitably naughty

 

[stimpy4242]

I could go along with that even just to stop the moaners. People forget the course is called advanced OPEN WATER and not advanced diver.

Well Until you just said that, I never really thought of that...its a good point. However I think you hit the nail on the head, its the perception.

 

[Sas]

Yea, most of the friends I know who have PADI AOW think it makes them a better diver than me by default. That may be true but it is not because of the extra certificate ;p I.e. the conversation will go:
Them: 'so you're certified now?'
Me: 'yep, OW a few months ago'
Them: 'Oh well I have *A*OW, you should try get that too so you can keep up with me!'
These people often have 8-10 logged dives and that is the extent of their experience... again that isn't a problem as people should dive when they feel like it and if they look down on my lowly OW I don't care as I am having fun just diving and slowly learning some skills and getting comfortable in the water. But it is the attitude that people get when they get certified as AOW, some people get overly confident when they don't have the experience to back it up.

You really are a fool if you think having AOW makes you an advanced diver. I guess PADI does market well though, in that regard. People will always sign up to stuff that gives them titles like '~~ADVANCED~~ open water'.

 

[oly5050user]

Ok to clarify, the boat fees were included in the course fees I mentioned. Re your question about comparing AU to US, as far as I know, most things are cheaper in the US than Australia - at least with food and electronics Not sure about scuba diving but US equipment seems cheaper from my research into getting my own gear.

My courses generally have 2 boat dives/day or 3 shore dives/day and I believe they count towards the AOW even if I am with an instructor? I guess even if that is not the case I will definitely have 24 dives logged on my own without an instructor by October when I should be doing the deep specialty. But again, I don't see how this should be included in AOW as I would have done the dives even if I did not want to get my AOW. I am actually doing the specialties as I am interested in them, and getting AOW will just be incidental to that.

I agree that cheap does not equal good quality instruction often. I have been very happy with my instructors as well as the price. It is nice to get both! I had to do extra dives to get my OW above the standard and it didn't cost more than a normal OW course at many other dive centres. I had trouble in my early dives with doing mask clears so I got individual attention with helping me fix that problem. Failing was a possibility as well as the instructor gave a few examples of people who had failed in the past to show what can go wrong. I think this is a good thing as it stops students getting complacent in learning skills.

Finally, my post was not meant to imply your course was expensive. I was just giving my own example of price and path to AOW as you asked who would pay for it. Cost is a big factor for a lot of people so you will get many people doing it on the cheap, whether or not it gives them good training. I guess if I was instructor I probably wouldn't want those kinds of people as they are likely argue about every single cost. From my own experience in running a business, it is best to avoid people who are only concerned about price.

thats cool...on your statement about if you did a" deep dive on your own there is no need to do it with again with an instructor to get advance certification" ..the problem there is you are askin g the instructor to verify something that he/she has not witnessed.Also there is more to it than just doing the dive.There's dive planning,gas management,procedures to follow if ndl is extended too long,narcosis awareness,etc.
I drove a car before I had a learners permit/license.Does that mean I tell the state motor vehicle office that and they will give me a license without testing?
Advance cert does not have to be expensive and that is what PADI delivers to most people as a group of experience dives under supervision.Does not make you an expert but exposes you to different dives /techniques/equipment.
To require 24 dives and 4 specialties would be great,I have absolutely no problem with that,but the market for it would be very small due to the time and expense it would entrail. Most people would not even start to do it ,at least with PADI's adv they may start on the road to continue education and find that if they want more they can go on to specialties and such.

 

[Sas]

What??? Where did I say that? I don't agree with that statement at all that you have supposedly quoted from me, I'm not an idiot. That is why I am doing a deep course... my first deep dive will be with an instructor after a lot of theory and training. I don't care about getting AOW, I was saying that I will end up with that due to the fact that I am doing specialties and doing dives on my own...

Edit: Oh I get it. You have very much misinterpreted what I meant. I presume you thought that because of this "But again, I don't see how this should be included in AOW as I would have done the dives even if I did not want to get my AOW. " that I meant I would be doing deep dives even with out an instructor. No, sorry, I meant that I would have done 24 unsupervised dives by the time I get to my deep course (the fourth and last specialty I require for AOW) so if SSI requires that your 24 dives be unsupervised I would still meet the requirement.

 

[oly5050user]

oh..ok

 

[oly5050user]

My courses generally have 2 boat dives/day or 3 shore dives/day and I believe they count towards the AOW even if I am with an instructor? I guess even if that is not the case I will definitely have 24 dives logged on my own without an instructor by October when I should be doing the deep specialty. But again, I don't see how this should be included in AOW as I would have done the dives even if I did not want to get my AOW. I am actually doing the specialties as I am interested in them, and getting AOW will just be incidental to that.

maybe I misunderstood what you wrote, where you said "I don't see how this should be included in AOW" sorry ..my bad..

 

[Sas]

Haha no hassle. I just read your post and was like 'I said that? I must be going mad'. I don't have nearly enough experience or knowledge to dive to 40m without any training or supervision. ;p And yes, I doubt my diving club would take my word for it that I had done the deep dives on my own and give me a specialty card.