Should PADI change Advanced Open Water Diver Standards?

[Azza]

If you see an OW diver card, and an AOW diver card, each from a diver you haven't met before, do you honestly expect one to be a better diver than the other?

And just to take it one step further (sorry if I dont make my point clear, i'm just about leave for work so rushing this post) one only has to have 100 dives, show "experience" in deep diving (could be one 40 metre dive maybe?) and have done rescue and DM to become a PADI instructor...so is the diver that rushes through to Instructor in the shortest time imaginable a better diver than the guy with 400 dives on an OW cert? Maybe in the point that he has done a rescue course but in actual diving ability?

I know a guy who is a PADI MSDT, TDI Advanced Tri-mix and GUE Tec 2 and Cave 2. I wouldn't dive with him because he is egotistical megalomaniac and I believe this makes him dangerous in the water.

The point is that people get hung up on cards when really attitude and experience should examined when taking into account any divers diving ability.

 

[ReefHound]

Really?
I wouldnt say an instructor card is a license to learn diving skills...there were no new "diving skills" on my instructor course....

He didn't say a license to learn diving skills, he just said a license to learn. The instructor card is a license to learn how to teach. Presumably, instructors learn to become better instructors over time as they gain experience instructing.

 

[Walter]

By the definition you appear to use, EVERYBODY then "buys" a card...

Nope. With most certifications (SSI Advanced & MD and PADI's MD are exceptions), a person pays for a class. Upon successful completion of the class (usually involving classroom study and some dives) a certification is awarded (yes, they have paid the expense of ordering the card) to the diver. With SSI's Advanced and Master Diver as well as PADI's Master Diver, there is no actual class involved. Two divers can take the exact same classes and have the exact same number of dives, yet one may have the one (or more) of those cards while the other does not. They are pats on the back, but not actually the result of a specific class.

 

[pir8]

Really?
I wouldnt say an instructor card is a license to learn diving skills...there were no new "diving skills" on my instructor course....

Didn't say the words diving skills, you did.
But I hope I never stop learning.
Actually I try to take at least one class myself a year from someone else. Even if its only to steal ideas.

 

[PacificDivers]

PADI actually had a very good advanced course back in the '80s. It was based around developing a diver who had experience at the open water level. It inlcuded a much greater theory component, much of which went into the knowledge review workbook at the end of the same decade. There were 5 dives. Deep and navigation, not too much different to what is required today, however the limits were different for the deep dive. Then the student had to conduct a dive in limited visiblity, a search and recovery dive including the use of a lifting device and a night dive.

The standard for completing the course was not to simply conduct these dives under the overwhelming guidance of your dive instructor, but to have the confidence from your previous open water experience and subsequent theory, to be able to conduct these dives in a far more independent manner that what is taught today.

In my opinion the course changed to cater for more steps between O/W and DM and to make the course more sellable. The O/W course also got a dumb down to make it more acheivable while retaining the basic theory required to understand how to dive safely.

No matter what you call continuing education courses, an advanced diver should be just that. Someone who has the skills and experience to plan and conduct dives under difficult and challenging circumstances. In this day and age I have quickly learned that many Dive Masters do not have this capability.

My 2 cents.

Steve

 

[oly5050user]

You learn a lot doing things on your own, I would venture to guess thats how most things start...people doing things through trial and error...I mean from the first dive you do you are already learning, bouancy is certainly learned over time...

Also you are really assuming the worst with everything, first he posted the class prices. Also you are saying rental equipment...people could have their own gear too. Then you can't say in your next post ok 2000 dollars in gear...no because the gear they buy is for all their diving, not just for the class they are doing. You say boat fees, but I know a lot of diving that happens without boats, there are quarries and lakes and shore diving.

People do learn from trial and error,only it takes then much longer that way and Darwin has an influence there.Much faster and easier to take lessons from a pro.
Never said anything about $2,000. in gear,only gave costs for this adv program in realistic terms.
rentals are usually less expensive than owning,alot of people just out of ow going into adv still rent,sorry to say.If using own gear still have to spend $ to get it.Take rentals out of the equation and its still alot more than most people would spend.
Locally here boats are pretty much the ONLY way to access water,unless you drive 2 hrs to Dutch or 3 1/2 hr to Newport RI (gas at close to $4.00 a gallon). and then pay for access,then a hotel and dinner(more costly than a boat dive that way). Really did not assume the worse of everything,I actually am pretty much conservative with the stated costs.I charge $300. for a PADI advance course.Includes an orientation night session and 5 dives.Dives can be done on a boat locally,and are included in that fee.Student needs to purchase training materials(text) and supply necessary gear.Standard dive gear that may have been used for ow training with an addition of 2 lights(night dive) knife,small lift bag,reel..Rentals are students responsibility if all equipment is not owned.So costs are about $350. for training/text and another $250.-$400. for necessary gear.Total comes to $600. to $750..this is for only the 5 dive PADI advance program,to make this a 4 specialty course with 2 dives each requires more acad time and more dives along with the 24 logged dives would increase the costs greatly.
People today want instant gratification and to do it any other way will not bring in business.Better to offer an advance course as PADIs for them to build on experience under supervision, it is not designed to make them experts,was never meant to, and then if they wish to get more involved in a particular speciality then let them go for it.

 

[Thalassamania]

PADI actually had a very good advanced course back in the '80s. It was based around developing a diver who had experience at the open water level. It inlcuded a much greater theory component, much of which went into the knowledge review workbook at the end of the same decade. There were 5 dives. Deep and navigation, not too much different to what is required today, however the limits were different for the deep dive. Then the student had to conduct a dive in limited visiblity, a search and recovery dive including the use of a lifting device and a night dive.

The standard for completing the course was not to simply conduct these dives under the overwhelming guidance of your dive instructor, but to have the confidence from your previous open water experience and subsequent theory, to be able to conduct these dives in a far more independent manner that what is taught today.

In my opinion the course changed to cater for more steps between O/W and DM and to make the course more sellable. The O/W course also got a dumb down to make it more acheivable while retaining the basic theory required to understand how to dive safely.

No matter what you call continuing education courses, an advanced diver should be just that. Someone who has the skills and experience to plan and conduct dives under difficult and challenging circumstances. In this day and age I have quickly learned that many Dive Masters do not have this capability.

My 2 cents.

Steve

Dumbing down their rather good Advanced course was the first step in PADI's march to make diving stupid. It was clearly done to gain a competitive advantage with an unsophisticated public. All the other agencies were the stuck with unmarketable programs, since the title "Advanced Diver" was the same in all cases, but the new PADI program was much easier to pass and much less expensive to run. PADI Advanced Diver was roughly equivalent to the then second course in the NAUI Sequence, O/W II that was also known at one point as Sport Diver. PADI then continued to slash the standards for the rest of their programs, and in time the marketing wonders that came to run the other agencies just caved in and followed suit.

 

[stimpy4242]

Oly5050user:

I agree people want instant gratification and thats what basic ow does for you...As far as advanced, NO, you should have to work for it. I am a licensed skydiver, I worked hard and payed a lot for that, I have a B license, (they have a,b,c,d) and B you can get at 100 jumps, c at 250 and d at 500. So experience and paying for jumps (about 23 a lift) gets expensive, but you have to do it and check off on certain skills in addition to the jump numbers...so sorry you need to work to get things...

also I said don't mention the gear, gear is purchased not just for a course, but for a scuba diving hobby and you use it ongoing...so its not a purchase that is only made for an advanced course and I am hoping that people will want to go enjoy themselves before jumping into advanced...and when they come in for the class they will ahve already had their dives and it won't be a cost associated with the needs of an advanced class, but a cost of having fun and scuba diving and enjoying life...i am sorry you are looking at this as so black and white like the only reason someone would go diving is to get checked off and get numbers for their next thing, sure some do, but the purpose is to have fun...lets all remember that...

 

[ucfdiver]

Depends...a good mate of mine still only holds an OW card and has around 400 dives, most of them deeper than 30 metres.
You can be an AOW diver at 9 dives....

All cards are a crock of **** anyway....

Exactly. The only people who care about cards are

• Divers who card collect
• Dive sites trying to avoid being sued.

 

[Sas]

My estimate is based on an additional 24 dives AFTER ow..I do not know the exchange rate US $ to Aussie ..Yours is based on 12 dives..standards only allow 3 dive per day,for training purposes usually.The reality is I only do 2 training dives per day ,so rentals at that rate are 12 rental days-$600. rentals alone..We are talking about training cost to actually dive,so a class like equipment maint is not in the mix,and for that particular course i don't know what is inexpensive about it,I charge $200. for a minimum group of 2 to do it and for 1 to 1 I charge $300.Works out to $15. per hr pay doing it 1 to 1.As to people buying gear even if they do not take course,that is not entirely true,if you do not provide a need to purchase they usually do not.The estimate I gave is for everything-training and gear purchases-rentals-access fees to boat/quarry,and as I said I even lowballed it.Your estimate is not too far off if you had double the amount of dives as I estimated and had boat fees added in too.

Diving education should not be cheap and thats where alot of instructors fail and to make up the difference they may cut corners and violate standards.I feel that I am totally worth what I charge and then more.Don't want to pay it,ok tell me what you want and maybe I can work out an alternative program for you that will make you happy,or go elsewhere..
Must work because just this week alone I have 1 ow course with 2 private students,another private course this same week with another 2 students,and I am starting another ow class for the lds I work thru with 7 students.This is also our SLOW season here in NY.(I am very surprised at how busy this is for me, being that I do not do this 40 hrs a week as a full time job)
I also have a group of 9 going with me to Bonaire May 3rd,and completing ow training dives there,along with advance ,nitrox and photo specialties.

Ok to clarify, the boat fees were included in the course fees I mentioned. Re your question about comparing AU to US, as far as I know, most things are cheaper in the US than Australia - at least with food and electronics Not sure about scuba diving but US equipment seems cheaper from my research into getting my own gear.

My courses generally have 2 boat dives/day or 3 shore dives/day and I believe they count towards the AOW even if I am with an instructor? I guess even if that is not the case I will definitely have 24 dives logged on my own without an instructor by October when I should be doing the deep specialty. But again, I don't see how this should be included in AOW as I would have done the dives even if I did not want to get my AOW. I am actually doing the specialties as I am interested in them, and getting AOW will just be incidental to that.

I agree that cheap does not equal good quality instruction often. I have been very happy with my instructors as well as the price. It is nice to get both! I had to do extra dives to get my OW above the standard and it didn't cost more than a normal OW course at many other dive centres. I had trouble in my early dives with doing mask clears so I got individual attention with helping me fix that problem. Failing was a possibility as well as the instructor gave a few examples of people who had failed in the past to show what can go wrong. I think this is a good thing as it stops students getting complacent in learning skills.

Finally, my post was not meant to imply your course was expensive. I was just giving my own example of price and path to AOW as you asked who would pay for it. Cost is a big factor for a lot of people so you will get many people doing it on the cheap, whether or not it gives them good training. I guess if I was instructor I probably wouldn't want those kinds of people as they are likely to argue about every single cost. From my own experience in running a business, it is best to avoid people who are only concerned about price.