Should Cert Cards be for life? My cert cards seem to be worthless!

[DarinJ]

In response the the OP's idea of divers having to document a certain number of dives each year to 'stay current'...

I do the vast majority of my dives as local shore dives with a buddy (usually my son). We sometimes link up with a local instructor for the social aspect before, between & after diving, but the instructor is in no position to 'validate' our diving as he his focused on his students and not watching us. So, this idea will require me to spend more money to 'recertify' each year because I dive regularly--but none (or very few) of my dives are supervised by a DM, whereas a once-a-year vacation diver could do one dive trip a year somewhere where DMs are required and pay less for a shorter recertification course???

No, thank you!

On another note, those who only dive rarely seem to gravitate towards dive trips where they are supervised by a DM or instructor. Those of us who dive 'unsupervised' regularly will continue to gravitate towards dives and dive ops with less supervision. Also, those who dive regularly are also more likely to accurately determine their need for continuing education or refresher courses after a long 'dry spell'. This all definitely seems like a great argument--but I don't see any purpose to it...other than as a philosophical discussion (always a hit on SB!).

 

[oly5050user]

In response the the OP's idea of divers having to document a certain number of dives each year to 'stay current'..

On another note, those who only dive rarely seem to gravitate towards dive trips where they are supervised by a DM or instructor. Those of us who dive 'unsupervised' regularly will continue to gravitate towards dives and dive ops with less supervision. Also, those who dive regularly are also more likely to accurately determine their need for continuing education or refresher courses after a long 'dry spell'. This all definitely seems like a great argument--but I don't see any purpose to it...other than as a philosophical discussion (always a hit on SB!).

i find just the opposite..those that dive frequently have a network of friends/associates and i find them in my group trips we run every year. My Bonaire groups have people that break off and dive on their own constantly.

 

[Stoo]

Call me a curmudgeon, but I couldn't care less if Joe Diver re-certifies or not. If someone takes up diving, they should understand the risks associated with this activity. If the choose to not continue diving, other than a couple of vacation dives a year, then they already should understand the risks they are accepting by not staying at the top of their game. If they don't understand that, then their initial training fell short.

But go for a stroll through your typical mall... the level of obesity is staggering. All of those "larger" folk surely know that their extra tonnage is going to accelerate a decline in their life-style and their deaths. Yet they do nothing.

Look at smokers... if they don't know that every puff is aiding in their premature death, then they must truly be either (a) dumb as stumps, which is unlikely, (b) unable to quite because they lack the commitment or simply don't want to or (c) they are in denial.

Anyway, my point is this: You can't regulate common sense. The reality is that a certain percentage of people that get certified shouldn't have been certified anyway. We have all seen the guy on the boat who is so fat he can't put his own fins on, or who is hacking up mucous brought on by his pack-a-day habit. Why in the world do we think some kind of re-certification is going to do anything to make better divers? The re-cert process will HAVE to be so ridiculously simple, that it will be pointless. If we are going to insist on policing like this, why don't we plan on policing for people who simply can't dive while we're at it. Perhaps a snitch-line so we can calin the SCUBA Police on those offenders who are kicking the grit out of the reef~ (I just got back from a tiny resort on Roatan, and of the nine of us there, there were really only four people who could maintain proper buoyancy.)

I suspect that the only positive effect of requiring a re-certification is that many of the divers who "suck" at diving, simply won't re-certify, so this might weed them out, and cause the overall diving population to look better!

 

[drrich2]

Call me a curmudgeon, but I couldn't care less if Joe Diver re-certifies or not. If someone takes up diving, they should understand the risks associated with this activity. If the choose to not continue diving, other than a couple of vacation dives a year, then they already should understand the risks they are accepting by not staying at the top of their game. If they don't understand that, then their initial training fell short.

Strongly agree.

But go for a stroll through your typical mall... the level of obesity is staggering. All of those "larger" folk surely know that their extra tonnage is going to accelerate a decline in their life-style and their deaths. Yet they do nothing.

It often looks that way, but the truth behind the scenes is often far different. Would you give up something you love in order to maybe (there's no guarantee) live a few extra years? Okay, would you still do it if there was the added cost of spending the rest of your life miserably fighting against various urges to indulge in something you love? And the personal cost in the psychological energy fighting that, that you could otherwise pour into other things.

At 6 1" & 275 lbs, I am quite chunky. Used to weigh 355 lbs. But see me on a dive boat, and you might think I 'do nothing.'

Richard.

 

[DaleC]

An idea:

Create a progressive cert system that requires 100 logged (documented) dives, and:

1. A multi-faceted system where divers get ongoing training, or certified experience up to 100 dives. This multi faceted system will be flexible, so that divers who regularly dive with instructors or DMs, can get credit for non-instruction dives as long as the DM or instructor witnesses good technique and knowledge. OW divers with 100 logged dives who can't prove ongoing supervised dives will need to take the "full Master Scuba Cert Course."
2. Once the prerequisite experience is obtained and a true Master Cert earned, a diver will need to maintain that cert annually, which includes a refresher of the basics. If the diver has logged 15 or 20 open water dives, fully documented, during the previous year, then the recert requirement is very basic. Otherwise, the diver with no or very few truly documentable dives (receipts and signed log by DM, instructor, buddy, Captain, and/or Company stamp) will be required to take an extensive refresher course in order to maintain the "Master Scuba Cert level."
3. And for the DM or operator who ignores this cert: keel-haul-em!

I am willing to do almost anything that gets me diving to my experience and training level.

Otherwise, I will probably drop out of this boring sport!

Golf is probably less expensive and less aggravating!

Hunting is definitely less expensive, even when I don't shoot anything.

markmud
(quitter)

PS: Gilliam's Bona Fides:
"I can hear the denials already, but after 44 years in the industry, including running NAUI and founding the TDI/SDI conglomerate, I've got some unique perspective. I was also invested in resorts, liveaboards, diving cruise ships, publishing and manufacturing. Now my primary focus is consulting on litigation in the diving industry."

So you're suggesting the way to decrease the dropout rate in SCUBA is to require all divers to attain master diver status, log 100 supervised dives, plus annually recerts?

 

[CT-Rich]

Here is my take as a true recreational diver that has been doing it since 1980 and still has just my original NAUI Scuba certification.

I really don't give a crap about a lot of the certifications that are out there. Surf diver? done that. Night Diver? done that. Solo? done that. Boat Diver? Done that. Why am I not loading up on c-cards? because they just drain money out of my pocket. I buy gear as I can afford it, I will take courses as I can afford it.

My dive shop gives me nice discounts because, as they put it, I am one of the real divers. I dive through the whole season. I would love to take additional training, but I have bills to pay and a kid in college. When the time and money are available, I will spend the money. I still have to spend money for gear maintenance, visuals and hydros. Am I going to go in and drop money on flashy toys? No. I try to buy well and once.

If I get a lot of crap about my c-card or what I should do, will I keep with them? Depends. I let them pitch me on gear and training that they think I will benefit from. They are a business, I get that. Knowing me as a regular customer, they know my interests and habits. They are welcome to make my dive experiences better and safer. But if they tell me what I have to do to stay a customer? F*** you and the horse you road in on.

Voluntary Certification has worked well as a system, keeping the cost down and government out. But having certification agencies trying to become regulatory agencies is crap. The WORST thing you can do is have a regulator with a profit motive. It is called a conflict of interests.

To the OP, if you keep getting mistaken for a Newbie. Buy your own boat and/or, build a relationship with a few dive related businesses that will get to know/trust you (charter captains are about liability, so the lowest common denominator dictates the dive). Try to get off the beaten path. The Internet, Google Earth and just about every navigational chart on Earth is out there for you to look at and research with. All those wreck charters and guided shore dives and reef adventures were found by people who did the leg work to try a spot out. If you look to others to herd you on and off the boat, you will always be on a cattle boat.

Does the dive industry need to be fixed? I suppose so, seems to be a hot discussion topic. Do I, as recreational diver, need to be fixed? No.

Make my experience a good one and I will see you next week, if I don't have other stuff that takes president.

 

[NAM001]

You have a point. In 68 my ymca course cose 40 and that may have included the book. Min wage was i guess 1.00-1.25. Min wage is now what 8 so up the cost of the class to say 300 a class. Thats great for the instructor end of things. My Ymca class included what is now required for a master card. So it may be a good idea to double class rates and many would pay for it as long as teh course content stayed the same. What are course costs. OW 200 aow 150. Rescue 150 deep 75 nav 75 first responder 100. So the equivilant of the 68 class today costs 750+ almost 20 times what it did in 68. all the classes have to get a 50% reduction to do the inflation thing. Not picking a fight just making an observation.

Perhaps if the shop would start charging what the instruction is worth, they wouldn't have to pay in peanuts.

We could go on and on here.

What do you think the LA county courses cost in the 60's? Adjust for inflation, then come talk to me.

---------- Post added January 26th, 2015 at 06:55 AM ----------

Most all are valid points

Recertification provides a loophole to allow operators to refuse groups of divers that they feel is just not up to par for the dive. Many will still get through but it helps.
Nothing can fix an unsafe active diver except peer pressure. boat says must hve a buddy and no one will buddy up too bad.
Training will probably never change at the nitial level. OW was never ment to make a compitant diver only to teach the skills and let practice take its course.
The rest for me is moot. No matter what solution would be proposed many will still slip through. The choice is simple quality or quantity. Experienced divers want quality and operators want quantity. Unfortunately what will probably happen is that your vaiver willalso have a paragraph for you to agree to accept the boats buddy assignment as condition to be taxied.

I read the current article before posting, and had previously read the other. I still disagree with the premise. Requiring recertification does not fix the training and other issues he discusses.

It will not fix diver safety for active divers.

It will not fix any (real or perceived) issues with initial training for active divers.

It MAY increase some industry revenues. Not my problem.

It may also, through unintended consequences, lead to bona fide licensing requirements. No thanks.

If you want to market to drop outs and lure them back, do so. The shops and agencies have customer lists and contact info. Use it.

 

[CT-Rich]

If a dive shop offers an inexpensive pool night and a free season opener lecture series that includes a slide show of last years dive trips and charters, and they include a safe diving review, I would definitely sit through that. Wouldn't this accomplish a lot of what the re-certification people are talking about? Hell, I would happily let them show me the new toys, also. Its called marketing, build your customer base. RJP is right, people will pay what it is worth. The businesses that build value get customers.

 

[NAM001]

tr3a

It seems that the objective is to,,,,, deel with those who loose proficiency from lack of use or are products of poor training. I see those issues with OW and in many situations AOW certs. At what point would you consider based on the card carried that adaquate experience has been obtained and thus will not need recertification TO DIVE. OW's i can see. AOw's ,some, i could see. Master I dont think so and DM not at all. Its easier to control the DM through insurance coverage. I understand that master and DM only need 60 or less dives depending on agency however I only now of one that has got his DM with 60 dives. Most masters and dmd's have 100's before even persueing those levels. With that many dives it would be innappropriate to question whether a master or dm can clear his mask at depth, maintain trim and buoyancy, know how to be a buddy ect. In short all the things that recertification would be used to weed out.

An idea:

Create a progressive cert system that requires 100 logged (documented) dives, and:

1. A multi-faceted system where divers get ongoing training, or certified experience up to 100 dives. This multi faceted system will be flexible, so that divers who regularly dive with instructors or DMs, can get credit for non-instruction dives as long as the DM or instructor witnesses good technique and knowledge. OW divers with 100 logged dives who can't prove ongoing supervised dives will need to take the "full Master Scuba Cert Course."
2. Once the prerequisite experience is obtained and a true Master Cert earned, a diver will need to maintain that cert annually, which includes a refresher of the basics. If the diver has logged 15 or 20 open water dives, fully documented, during the previous year, then the recert requirement is very basic. Otherwise, the diver with no or very few truly documentable dives (receipts and signed log by DM, instructor, buddy, Captain, and/or Company stamp) will be required to take an extensive refresher course in order to maintain the "Master Scuba Cert level."
3. And for the DM or operator who ignores this cert: keel-haul-em!

I am willing to do almost anything that gets me diving to my experience and training level.

Otherwise, I will probably drop out of this boring sport!

Golf is probably less expensive and less aggravating!

Hunting is definitely less expensive, even when I don't shoot anything.

markmud
(quitter)

PS: Gilliam's Bona Fides:
"I can hear the denials already, but after 44 years in the industry, including running NAUI and founding the TDI/SDI conglomerate, I've got some unique perspective. I was also invested in resorts, liveaboards, diving cruise ships, publishing and manufacturing. Now my primary focus is consulting on litigation in the diving industry."

Are you for real???[/QUOTE]

 

[CT-Rich]

If a dive shop offers an inexpensive pool night and a free season opener lecture series that includes a slide show of last years dive trips and charters, and they include a safe diving review, I would definitely sit through that. Wouldn't this accomplish a lot of what the re-certification people are talking about? Hell, I would happily let them show me the new toys, also. Its called marketing, build your customer base. RJP is right, people will pay what it is worth. The businesses that build value gets customers.