Should Cert Cards be for life? My cert cards seem to be worthless!

[TMHeimer]

Sorry for not reading the whole thread before posting, so if this is a repeat....

As a divemaster the only thing required for me to maintain my active status is to pay my dues. I do not have to do ANY diving to renew. OTHO, no matter how much I dive, if I do not pay the dues, I lose active status as a divemaster. At least that is how it works in the PADI world.

I think I posted that before in another thread somewhere on this.

---------- Post added January 25th, 2015 at 06:08 PM ----------

Personally I think c-cards should be renewed every few years unless the diver can show proof of a reasonable number of logged dives during the interval period. I have seen people enter the water without a guide and they have not been diving for years and in some cases decades. Many of us have felt the need to keep an eye on them to ensure they make a safe ascent after their descent.

I once watched a guy swimming back to the stairs after entering the water. Something was strange but it took me a few seconds to realize what it was. He had entered without a tank on his back! His regulator was dangling behind him attached only by the inflator hose. None of us could believe it. Then after he affixed the tank, he re-entered the water and couldn't descend. It was then I realized he hadn't put on his weight belt either!

No tank--that's a new one to me. Amazing. Still, I agree with those on no cert. renewing and adults being adults.

 

[gcarter]

What tax? The Bret Gilliam article suggests making recertification free. Both articles are well worth actually reading.

Dive Training Today, A Perspective by Bret Gilliam, Diver Magazine

Should Diver Certification Be Forever? by Bret Gilliam, Diver Magazine

I read the current article before posting, and had previously read the other. I still disagree with the premise. Requiring recertification does not fix the training and other issues he discusses. How does my recertification address his fixation on the AOW cert (which is not an advanced cert, subject of many other threads), or his issue with the low number of dives required to become an instructor? How does it fix the issue of "field condition protocols" for resorts or any of the other things he is concerned with? Recertification addresses none of these. Those problems lie at the START, and are in the hands of the training agencies, shops, and operators.

And yes, it is a tax. My time is worth something and forcing me to waste it on a non-value added activity, no matter how benign you feel it is, is a tax. That's is even if you ignore the fact that these is a real cost to recertification, however structured, that will need to be paid by someone. If the LDS isn't charging for it explicitly, you can be damn sure they will make up for it in their other prices.

It will not fix diver safety for active divers.

It will not fix any (real or perceived) issues with initial training for active divers.

It MAY increase some industry revenues. Not my problem.

It may also, through unintended consequences, lead to bona fide licensing requirements. No thanks.

If you want to market to drop outs and lure them back, do so. The shops and agencies have customer lists and contact info. Use it.

 

[redacted]

What is really needed is a new revenue stream for dive shops ----- or is that just what we are talking about?

 

[tomfcrist]

What is really needed is a new revenue stream for dive shops ----- or is that just what we are talking about?

The revenue stream for dive shops has been discussed to death. The fact is that if a shop wants to make money, they pull their head out of their ass and get with the times.
You don't see NES, DRIS or any of the other household names in scuba marketing complaining about revenue....because they "get it".

 

[tr3a]

An idea:

Create a progressive cert system that requires 100 logged (documented) dives, and:

1. A multi-faceted system where divers get ongoing training, or certified experience up to 100 dives. This multi faceted system will be flexible, so that divers who regularly dive with instructors or DMs, can get credit for non-instruction dives as long as the DM or instructor witnesses good technique and knowledge. OW divers with 100 logged dives who can't prove ongoing supervised dives will need to take the "full Master Scuba Cert Course."
2. Once the prerequisite experience is obtained and a true Master Cert earned, a diver will need to maintain that cert annually, which includes a refresher of the basics. If the diver has logged 15 or 20 open water dives, fully documented, during the previous year, then the recert requirement is very basic. Otherwise, the diver with no or very few truly documentable dives (receipts and signed log by DM, instructor, buddy, Captain, and/or Company stamp) will be required to take an extensive refresher course in order to maintain the "Master Scuba Cert level."
3. And for the DM or operator who ignores this cert: keel-haul-em!

I am willing to do almost anything that gets me diving to my experience and training level.

Otherwise, I will probably drop out of this boring sport!

Golf is probably less expensive and less aggravating!

Hunting is definitely less expensive, even when I don't shoot anything.

markmud
(quitter)

PS: Gilliam's Bona Fides:
"I can hear the denials already, but after 44 years in the industry, including running NAUI and founding the TDI/SDI conglomerate, I've got some unique perspective. I was also invested in resorts, liveaboards, diving cruise ships, publishing and manufacturing. Now my primary focus is consulting on litigation in the diving industry."[/QUOTE]


Are you for real???

 

[RJP]

Perhaps if the shop would start charging what the instruction is worth, they wouldn't have to pay in peanuts.

We could go on and on here.

What do you think the LA county courses cost in the 60's? Adjust for inflation, then come talk to me.

No need to go on and on here.

I love when people throw out the "need to charge what the course is actually worth" idea. It's quite a silly notion, actually.

It's simple economics... a course is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It's a LOW DEMAND issue, not a LOW PRICE issue.

The only way to increase profits by charging more is to first develop/increase the DEMAND for a more expensive course. As you can see below, raising the price of a course in the absence of greater demand you will actually DECREASE the demand for the course.

A $500 class that no one signs up for is worth $0.

---------- Post added January 25th, 2015 at 08:55 PM ----------

What is really needed is a new revenue stream for dive shops ----- or is that just what we are talking about?

Do they need a new revenue stream or a new value proposition for the current one? Frankly, if you're looking at a business that can't handle their current revenue stream... I'm not sure they'll do any better with an additional one. Probably worse.

 

[NAM001]

Expirable certs i dont think can work to the extent needed. Like taking guns only the honest will comply. Renewable certs. and you will have a boat that says sorry your cert is expired but for $$$$$ we will take you any way and renew your cert as a bonus. As long as there is money to be made. Ethics will always take a back seat. No mattter what the system is as long as you have to have x dives verified by a credible validator, the one that validates the final dive for recert still has no idea who the other dm sigs belong to. It still comes down to why should i spend more money for something i dont do that often. Untill you go to a system that, to some extent. can use the cert card with a mag strip to swipe on each completion of a dive, any validation system is futile. As well as the one i just referenced. Gee boat operator will you accept a photo copy of my log book. I promise the pages are not from my buddies. Untill our legal system conceeds to the premis that most things are not anyones fault but the "victom"

 

[tomfcrist]

No need to go on and on here.

I love when people throw out the "need to charge what the course is actually worth" idea. It's quite a silly notion, actually.

It's simple economics... a course is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It's a LOW DEMAND issue, not a LOW PRICE issue.

The only way to increase profits by charging more is to first develop/increase the DEMAND for a more expensive course. As you can see below, raising the price of a course in the absence of greater demand you will actually DECREASE the demand for the course.

A $500 class that no one signs up for is worth $0.
.

You should call Dave Ochs, and see why his business is so successful when he charges 3x what his competition does. Conversely call your local $199 OW course shop and see if they will let you look at the books.

Shops could get away with using OW as a loss leader back before the internet...because they could charge 3-500% of dealer cost for gear.....once they lost that ability lost all but the air fill and repair business, and they still don't make **** on basic courses.

The reason courses started getting cheaper had nothing to do with how much people would pay, but had everything to do with increasing gear sales and service....the biggest money maker in scuba. If I drop my price for courses you will stay with me when it comes time to buy gear... Not so much these days when I can have gear shipped to my door in 3 days for free when paying 60% of the LDS price....

 

[RJP]

You should call Dave Ochs, and see why his business is so successful when he charges 3x what his competition does. Conversely call your local $199 OW course shop and see if they will let you look at the books.

Shops could get away with using OW as a loss leader back before the internet...because they could charge 3-500% of dealer cost for gear.....once they lost that ability lost all but the air fill and repair business, and they still don't make **** on basic courses.

I met with Dave at DEMA. He's the perfect example of what I'm saying. His business is not so successful because he capriciously raised his price. He has developed a marketing strategy and positioning that creates the demand for a $1,250 OW course. That demand enables him to charge the higher price.

 

[tomfcrist]

It's what I'm saying...it's how you choose to operate your buisiness. His business is very successful. If you refuse to change the model, then yes...you are correct in that you cannot raise your course price.