Should Cert Cards be for life? My cert cards seem to be worthless!

[RJP]

Bolded by me.

Yet McDonalds spends a fortune to insure that they bring back every possible customer.


Bob

That's actually not true. It may sound semantic, but it's a critical difference. McDonald's spends a fortune to increase visits, spend-per-visit, and profitability of visit among people with a disproportionate potential to respond to marketing efforts. There are millions of customers that McDonalds don't spend a penny towards.

 

[gcarter]

That was my knee-jerk reaction as well before reading the full article. I was impressed enough to E-mail Bret to congratulate him — quite unlike an old-school curmudgeon like me. Like I wrote above, it isn’t about mandating retraining for active divers. It is more about an opportunity to market to occasional and dropout divers and make them a little safer at the same time.

There is no way that dive boat operators, air fill stations, and dive resorts are going to require it any time soon. Either way, active divers will just get a nod from their LDS with a card attached.

If PADI or anyone else wants to market, they can feel free to do so. There is no righteous justification for taxing the certs earned on a regular basis.

Taxing my certs does not make anyone safer.

When I read things like this:

Another issue arises concurrently: Should today's certifications have an expiration date before which some sort of renewal is required? Again, it requires some basis of Solomon's logic, but it would improve safety, spur sales and prompt diver interest to begin active participation again. Face it, inactive divers have largely dropped out and moved on to other activities. They're not customers anyway. If renewal was tactfully implemented, they might like to preserve their diver status and come on down for the refresher program offered at a minimum charge, and be issued a new card good for another five years. And while they are in the retail store or dive resort getting re-qualified, don't you think that just maybe some sales will result? Remember, you're grabbing a customer who has dropped out and re-stimulating his interest. The only result can be positive.

My reaction is that he wants to penalize / tax / add administrative burden to active divers to re-acquire customers. Why do I need to pay to re-acquire somebody else's customer? There is zero demonstrable benefit to me. My safety is not improved. My bottom line is not improved. These benefits accrue to others, let them pay the freight.

I don't care how it is dressed up, I ain't buying.

---------- Post added January 24th, 2015 at 11:33 PM ----------

Another bit:

Instructors, assistant instructors and divemasters are required to renew annually, pay dues to an agency, buy insurance, complete continuing education courses, and show legitimate evidence of diving activity and student training. But the regular "diver" population is not obligated to any such requirements, and, according to industry protocols, can continue diving on their original c-card forever.

When I went to school, the teachers were required to be members of a professional governing body. They were required to engage in ongoing professional development and were held to a code of professional standards.

As a student, I was "not obligated to any such requirements" and - *gasp* - I am entitled to continue to display that diploma to this very day.

It is a proof of education and training. It is not a license. Renewal requirements are, IMHO, ludicrous on their face.

 

[AfterDark]

!
I am willing to do almost anything that gets me diving to my experience and training level.

For that you need your own boat then you are captain, you decide where to dive, who dives, how long the dive is, how deep the dive. In addition if you take a DM along and said DM gives you a ration of BS you can make the DM find another ride back.

After 44 years of diving if I had to spend more on any more certs or re-cert, I'd buy a compressor instead. At some point spending money on certs is just a waste. I took a AOW and nitrox class that I could have taught what a waste!

 

[Keith.M]

My wife and I are on the way to being dropouts from diving. We are tired of the treatment. We are tired of the bait-n-switch we got with the cert card game.

An idea:

Create a progressive cert system that requires 100 logged (documented) dives, and:

1. A multi-faceted system where divers get ongoing training, or certified experience up to 100 dives. This multi faceted system will be flexible, so that divers who regularly dive with instructors or DMs, can get credit for non-instruction dives as long as the DM or instructor witnesses good technique and knowledge. OW divers with 100 logged dives who can't prove ongoing supervised dives will need to take the "full Master Scuba Cert Course."
2. Once the prerequisite experience is obtained and a true Master Cert earned, a diver will need to maintain that cert annually, which includes a refresher of the basics. If the diver has logged 15 or 20 open water dives, fully documented, during the previous year, then the recert requirement is very basic. Otherwise, the diver with no or very few truly documentable dives (receipts and signed log by DM, instructor, buddy, Captain, and/or Company stamp) will be required to take an extensive refresher course in order to maintain the "Master Scuba Cert level."
3. And for the DM or operator who ignores this cert: keel-haul-em!

I am willing to do almost anything that gets me diving to my experience and training level.

Otherwise, I will probably drop out of this boring sport!

Golf is probably less expensive and less aggravating!

Hunting is definitely less expensive, even when I don't shoot anything.

markmud
(quitter)

Hey Mark, interesting thread but I am completely confused.

What is the bait and switch you feel you had with your certs?

Where have you been diving that you always feel like you are automatically treated like a noob?

To be fair, you and I have done a couple of those alpine wall dives. That is typically how I dive whether with a regular buddy or someone new. We make a dive plan, something that interests us, and then go and implement that dive.

Now you may travel to dive more than I and have different experiences. But I do travel some and it is in those travels, where I will typically get my boat dives in. I can't say that I have ever felt that way. I usually have some idea on what the dive sites are going to be and will choose the operator based on that.

With that aside, I am looking at your recommendations. Why would I or anyone need to take this "full Master Scuba Cert Course."? What advantage does anyone get by having this certification? Then after getting this cert, I need to maintain it annually? If for some reason I can't prove that I have the required "documentable" dives, I now need to take an extensive refresher course?

I don't do my recreational diving typically with other DMs or instructors. Can I sign my own?

I must admit to being completely confused on the value here. You are in charge of who you dive with, be that a buddy or a dive op. You should have a good idea of where they are going before you have ever boarded the boat.

I still can't wrap my mind around the whole, you feel bad about bait and switch dive certs, but now you propose some other cert you must obtain and then renew it annually. Why?

 

[Redshift]

So is this about keeping divers active or identifying those who are lacking experience or practice when they show up for diving?

As for the first, that's up to the industry, to understand what divers want, what they are not getting and why and try to offer it. Also, some people may just not want to dive.

As for the second, isn't that already happening? I'd say sometimes it even happens too much.

 

[AdivingBel]

Finally, my point:

My cert cards are worthless if the industry treats me like a Muppet Diver everywhere I go!

I am willing to work for a certification that means something, even if it means ongoing education and a yearly review of my log book (documented log book with receipts, wet signatures, and/or stamps.)

I know what you Scuba Board pros are thinking: "He must not be a good diver if he writes a post like this."

Yeah, go ahead and think that...
My wife and I are on the way to being dropouts from diving. We are tired of the treatment. We are tired of the bait-n-switch we got with the cert card game.

Sorry you feel this way. Sorry you had a few bad experiences. I don't think you are bad divers. Just had a couple rough goes and are being a bit whiney about it. That's your right. What I don't understand is why you feel your treatment (and response to it) is indicative of everyone else's to the point of p***ing in my Cheerios??

You're obviously on the internet. You have a world of info at your finger tips. Do some research on the dive OPs you choose and choose the ones that fit your taste. Unless you're diving in Bumfiddle, Whoknowswhere you'll probably have a choice. If it's an established dive locale you probably can't swing a dead cat without hitting one. As an example, diving in the Keys you can go out with an OP with more rules than a catholic girl's school or one that says "Have fun, just get back on the right boat. BTW do ya want a grilled hot dog between dives? See ya." Where's Dan V. when you need someone on a soapbox preaching "Choose the Right Boat?" It would finally be on topic.

As divers, we can assess risk, set our own goals, choose our training and choose our certs (not necessarily the same thing) in order to navigate the current system. We also now have the tools to research dive locales and service providers. These tools aren't perfect and there will be a bump or two, but that's part of the adventure. We don't need more bureaucracy, scuba police, big brother (pick your fav euphemism, "nanny state" seems to be a big one on SB ) to get in the way of enjoying our beautiful pastime. IMHO

 

[redacted]

For that you need your own boat then you are captain, you decide where to dive, who dives, how long the dive is, how deep the dive. In addition if you take a DM along and said DM gives you a ration of BS you can make the DM find another ride back.

After 44 years of diving if I had to spend more on any more certs or re-cert, I'd buy a compressor instead. At some point spending money on certs is just a waste. I took a AOW and nitrox class that I could have taught what a waste!

Or you could just go to Bonaire. Otherwise just be a bit more selective about destinations an dive ops.

 

[Akimbo]

If PADI or anyone else wants to market, they can feel free to do so. There is no righteous justification for taxing the certs earned on a regular basis.

Taxing my certs does not make anyone safer….

What tax? The Bret Gilliam article suggests making recertification free. Both articles are well worth actually reading.

Dive Training Today, A Perspective by Bret Gilliam, Diver Magazine

Should Diver Certification Be Forever? by Bret Gilliam, Diver Magazine

 

[tomfcrist]

If PADI or anyone else wants to market, they can feel free to do so. There is no righteous justification for taxing the certs earned on a regular basis.

Taxing my certs does not make anyone safer….

What tax? The Bret Gilliam article suggests making recertification free. Both articles are well worth actually reading.

Dive Training Today, A Perspective by Bret Gilliam, Diver Magazine

Should Diver Certification Be Forever? by Bret Gilliam, Diver Magazine

So Gilliam is going to pay instructors for their time? I assure you somebody is going to pay for it. One cannot just waive a magic wand and declare something free.....unless Obama is doing it.

He says it will increase gear sales etc, but who reaps that reward? The dive shop owner. That's right, the same one that underplays his instructors and treats DM's like slave labor.

I assure you if I am doing a refresher for anyone, regardless if they pay the shop, the shop is going to pay me...I don't work for free.

How would that affect the independent instructor? Would independents also be required to not charge for this?

 

[RJP]

He says it will increase gear sales etc, but who reaps that reward? The dive shop owner. That's right, the same one that underplays his instructors and treats DM's like slave labor.

Perhaps if the shop owner reaped more rewards... they'd have enough money to pay instructors and DM's?