Not disagreeing with you. I am disagreeing with the poster I quoted.
Should Cert Cards be for life? My cert cards seem to be worthless!
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Not disagreeing with you. I am disagreeing with the poster I quoted.
KevinNM
Contributor
back then a cert ment something but now it takes longer to pass a bag of fries at mc d's. I can see pretty well what your training consisted of and that is the exact reference i am speeking from. i got mine in 68 with ymca. all you say is true. Those who dont know what traiing was like (in the days) can not possibly relate. Of course in those days there was only one course and that was open water diver.
regards
---------- Post added January 27th, 2015 at 05:56 AM ----------
The posts just keep on getting better. Looking at them i have begun to see some pattterns. The old guys ( i have to admit age wise I am one) look at an OW and think they are like them because they only took one course. The young kids. after 2 days training think they are also equal to the old vets. (they only took one course) Then there are those viewing things fromt he middle and they look at the old folks and say. There goes experience there goes some one I would like to dive with and pick up a few pointers. Then we look the other way and see the new generations borne of comercial degraded training seeing themselves equal to all around them. The invincable holders of new OW cards with 5 dives to thier credit. I tend to ask myself the question "If i had a little princess of 15 with less than 20 dives, would I , could I even think about trusting her to buddy with some one holding a card with wet ink to do a dive to 100 ft? Its easy to say the OW is good to 130 when it does not inpact you. And the card says you are fully trained ect. When you get right down to it. Do you buy into your argument. If not then you have to accept that there are some very severe shortages in skills and or experience, necessary to make a new diver compitant enough to trust little princess buffy to. The more experienced divers no matter how long they have been away from diving can, and do successfully climb right back on the bicycle and peddle away. Heck after a couple hundred dives i took 20 years off for the military and then got back into it. a couple of dives and it was like old home week. I had to learn what this BCD thing was but other than that one dive and it was as if i never missed a beat. Now several hundred dives since then. There is not much I find concerning about diving except who I am diving with. The main factor that i can not control. A factor so subject to problems from lack of experience and surpluss of ego that many should not be doing the type of diving they are doing. Most of the senior divers seam to be able to manage most problems because newbe's are generally willing to turn themselves over to another when they have problems. So old divers diving with old divers are seldom a problem. Old divers with young divers are normally not a problem. When you get young diving with young the odds of things falling apart escalates greatly. And it starts from the time they unpack the gear from the car till they get home again. Sometimes with all thier stuff. When the topic is raised, like this thread. Fingers are going to be pointed. Most all want tho insure the fingers point the other way. So we hear Ther is nothing wrong with my students cause I teach what they need to know and not what the course says I have to minimally teach. For many that is true. The course quality rests mostly with the INSTRUCTOR. I always have to ask if your students are so good then why dont they have more than the basic OW card. There is no excuse not to give them one when in a weeks time padi can take you from zero to AOW. A week later rescue and master. i only mention padi cause they are the predominate agency out there,, that does not require instructors to be attached with a shop. Consequently the price to this kind of training is that a major part of learning is missing. EXPERIENCE. I have never understod why you can comlete OW and imediately take nitrox which gives you your dive count to do AOW and untill cert dive for AOW you havnt been deeper than 30-40 ft. We (the community) argue that there should be no concerns about taking this new OW and toss them off a boat in the ocean and say see you in 40 minutes after a 90 ft dive. After all you have your OW card so you know it all. If that was true then why do I have to put OW's tanks back on for them while holding on to the ahchor line at 40' with thier buddies just existing there helpless. The answer is simple... they are not qualified to dive, they are not qualified to be a buddy. They are barely qualified to toss off the mooring line on the departing boat from the pier. But its not the majority of OW's that are like that.....So many are actually very well trained by good instructors. They are just refining a few skills before taking on AOW. The good divers are the ones that see thier OW card as a means to an end. The bad divers see the OW card as the end. For those no instructor can fix. The need to be culled out. Thats where the recerting would come it. I dont think anyone could even suggest that a seasoned diver should ever be recerted in the rec world. After 50 or so dives no recerting effort can fix problems either. Experience is the only true teacher once you have the skills presented to you. That leads to the problem of who do you require recerting of. Personally I think the AOW should be the expected level of certification to do many dives. Just my opinion. But that brings heated discussion about limits, experience, recommendations, common sence, liability. And all theat gets blurred with bottom line cause most divers do not have AOW certs. The discussion goes on and on and still no one considers the diver safety aspects. Pride and bottom line seams to trump all. Although I truly think there needs to be a mechanism that provides a check and ballance to the fundimental training (OW) to insure that the path is completed to what I would consider full recreational training completion. (Holding the AOW card) If OW holders say that thier experience makes them better than aows, then they should have no problem getting the AOW card. That AOW card should have the visual message that the holder is not a newbe but some one that CAN do any recreational dive. The AOW card at this opint does not say that when you can get it with 10+/- dives with perhaps 1 or 2 exceeding 60 ft. Once again would you entrust your little buffy with a new OW that has not been wet for some time. For those instructors who may think i am bashing them, I am not. The not so good instructors put out a minimum diver. The good instructors put out good divers. But even those good divers this year will not be good in 2 years if they dont use what they learned regularly. Some method has to be there to protect them from themselves and those they are diving with. Every avenue of diving has some method to help insure 1 surface for every dive. Even if it cuts into the bottom line.
regards
---------- Post added January 27th, 2015 at 05:56 AM ----------
The posts just keep on getting better. Looking at them i have begun to see some pattterns. The old guys ( i have to admit age wise I am one) look at an OW and think they are like them because they only took one course. The young kids. after 2 days training think they are also equal to the old vets. (they only took one course) Then there are those viewing things fromt he middle and they look at the old folks and say. There goes experience there goes some one I would like to dive with and pick up a few pointers. Then we look the other way and see the new generations borne of comercial degraded training seeing themselves equal to all around them. The invincable holders of new OW cards with 5 dives to thier credit. I tend to ask myself the question "If i had a little princess of 15 with less than 20 dives, would I , could I even think about trusting her to buddy with some one holding a card with wet ink to do a dive to 100 ft? Its easy to say the OW is good to 130 when it does not inpact you. And the card says you are fully trained ect. When you get right down to it. Do you buy into your argument. If not then you have to accept that there are some very severe shortages in skills and or experience, necessary to make a new diver compitant enough to trust little princess buffy to. The more experienced divers no matter how long they have been away from diving can, and do successfully climb right back on the bicycle and peddle away. Heck after a couple hundred dives i took 20 years off for the military and then got back into it. a couple of dives and it was like old home week. I had to learn what this BCD thing was but other than that one dive and it was as if i never missed a beat. Now several hundred dives since then. There is not much I find concerning about diving except who I am diving with. The main factor that i can not control. A factor so subject to problems from lack of experience and surpluss of ego that many should not be doing the type of diving they are doing. Most of the senior divers seam to be able to manage most problems because newbe's are generally willing to turn themselves over to another when they have problems. So old divers diving with old divers are seldom a problem. Old divers with young divers are normally not a problem. When you get young diving with young the odds of things falling apart escalates greatly. And it starts from the time they unpack the gear from the car till they get home again. Sometimes with all thier stuff. When the topic is raised, like this thread. Fingers are going to be pointed. Most all want tho insure the fingers point the other way. So we hear Ther is nothing wrong with my students cause I teach what they need to know and not what the course says I have to minimally teach. For many that is true. The course quality rests mostly with the INSTRUCTOR. I always have to ask if your students are so good then why dont they have more than the basic OW card. There is no excuse not to give them one when in a weeks time padi can take you from zero to AOW. A week later rescue and master. i only mention padi cause they are the predominate agency out there,, that does not require instructors to be attached with a shop. Consequently the price to this kind of training is that a major part of learning is missing. EXPERIENCE. I have never understod why you can comlete OW and imediately take nitrox which gives you your dive count to do AOW and untill cert dive for AOW you havnt been deeper than 30-40 ft. We (the community) argue that there should be no concerns about taking this new OW and toss them off a boat in the ocean and say see you in 40 minutes after a 90 ft dive. After all you have your OW card so you know it all. If that was true then why do I have to put OW's tanks back on for them while holding on to the ahchor line at 40' with thier buddies just existing there helpless. The answer is simple... they are not qualified to dive, they are not qualified to be a buddy. They are barely qualified to toss off the mooring line on the departing boat from the pier. But its not the majority of OW's that are like that.....So many are actually very well trained by good instructors. They are just refining a few skills before taking on AOW. The good divers are the ones that see thier OW card as a means to an end. The bad divers see the OW card as the end. For those no instructor can fix. The need to be culled out. Thats where the recerting would come it. I dont think anyone could even suggest that a seasoned diver should ever be recerted in the rec world. After 50 or so dives no recerting effort can fix problems either. Experience is the only true teacher once you have the skills presented to you. That leads to the problem of who do you require recerting of. Personally I think the AOW should be the expected level of certification to do many dives. Just my opinion. But that brings heated discussion about limits, experience, recommendations, common sence, liability. And all theat gets blurred with bottom line cause most divers do not have AOW certs. The discussion goes on and on and still no one considers the diver safety aspects. Pride and bottom line seams to trump all. Although I truly think there needs to be a mechanism that provides a check and ballance to the fundimental training (OW) to insure that the path is completed to what I would consider full recreational training completion. (Holding the AOW card) If OW holders say that thier experience makes them better than aows, then they should have no problem getting the AOW card. That AOW card should have the visual message that the holder is not a newbe but some one that CAN do any recreational dive. The AOW card at this opint does not say that when you can get it with 10+/- dives with perhaps 1 or 2 exceeding 60 ft. Once again would you entrust your little buffy with a new OW that has not been wet for some time. For those instructors who may think i am bashing them, I am not. The not so good instructors put out a minimum diver. The good instructors put out good divers. But even those good divers this year will not be good in 2 years if they dont use what they learned regularly. Some method has to be there to protect them from themselves and those they are diving with. Every avenue of diving has some method to help insure 1 surface for every dive. Even if it cuts into the bottom line.
Last edited:
flots am
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A new "instant diver" doesn't actually need to be incompetent and an old diver isn't necessarily safe. A brand new diver who can properly execute all the skills at the right time is actually quite a good diver and buddy, although only in relatively easy conditions. OTOH, a new diver can also be pretty much incompetent. As can an older diver. Even an experienced older diver.
FWIW, new divers haven't picked up any bad habits yet, so they still know things like "If something bad happens, go up", where a more experienced diver might decide to continue the dive when it's not really a good idea.
Buffy should get a solo card and be self-sufficient before you let her wander off with random buddies, then you won't have to worry (at least not about her dive safety). Until then, as a minor, I'd limit her buddy selection to known-excellent divers who will be very careful with her. This doesn't necessarily mean "professional" or not. Both pros and rec divers can be excellent or terrifying.
flots.
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Completely different paradigms make the comparison difficult to make. I'm reminded of a trip I took a few years back where I shared a boat with a couple who had been diving since the '70's. Their gear reflected their training ... neither used a pressure gauge, and both only had one second stage on their regulators. Their typical dive involved staying down until he ran out of air, then she would buddy-breathe with him off of her tank to the surface, they would manually inflate their BCDs, and end the dive. They told me they'd been diving this way for 40 years ... it's how they were trained. Does that somehow make them better divers than the person who's taught to monitor their air, and to deal with OOA emergencies by handing off a spare regulator? Or does it just make them lucky that they haven't yet run into a situation that's beyond their ability to deal with it?
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Geeze... Haven't they ever heard of a J valve?
AfterDark
Contributor
It probably means they can confidently execute a skill that most newly minted OW divers don't even know exists. I'll say for the number of times I've ever needed a another 2nd stage I could leave it home.
That couple went down together, stayed together, and ascended together. I'd say they are pretty good divers, better than a lot of instabuddies I've read about here on this forum.
Ana
.
so the OP quotes an article and points out that he and his wife somehow fit the profile of the article.
He is tired of going to the same "beat-up" shallow reefs and to be treated poorly.
I'm with him all the way, until I read ...
wow .... boring?
you just identify the problem being wrong locations and crappy operators, how do you go from there to the "boring sport" conclusion? and how would and expiration date on a card is going to solve that?
Operators that take you to the same "beat-up" place, do it because it is easy for them and the good little sheep they have as customers continue filling up their boats.
Operators that treat you like you are a drooling idiot, obviously don't get enough negative responses from the herd. Most likely their tips don't suffer as a direct result of that type of behavior.
This problem may be the result of badly trained divers but that ship has sailed. The releases you have to sign for them to take your money will not get shorter. Just like their insurance premiums will not cost less (not that it matters to a rec diver).
If your conclusion is that diving is boring, that's just cool. Will you be selling your gear? I'm always in the look out for HP tanks ijs.
Now you are not the first diver that suddenly realizes that the mainstream system is a load of BS.
I had that epiphany a couple of decades ago. I realized that my patience level does not meet the requirements for dealing with the average cattle boat, and was I to continue giving them my money the odds of ending up arrested were climbing rapidly.
So the research began, at the end my only solution was to get my own boat and only use charters when I go on trips, and even then only use charters recommended by people I know have similar requirements. I still get the attitudes, specially if well intentioned friend burns the operator ear telling them that my husband and I can dive. But as long as they don't touch me or my gear I can ignore them for a dive or two.
My diving dreams have been adjusted from "I want to dive every possible location in the planet" to "I want to dive every inch of reef I can get to with my boat" I'm already old so as long as I have 30 to 50 years worth of locations is good enough, plus I don't keep logs, I'll forget some areas and would be fine diving them again.
We all have different levels of experience and training. For some both factors go hand in hand for others is heavily one-sided. But boring? I don't know where that fits.
He is tired of going to the same "beat-up" shallow reefs and to be treated poorly.
I'm with him all the way, until I read ...
wow .... boring?
you just identify the problem being wrong locations and crappy operators, how do you go from there to the "boring sport" conclusion? and how would and expiration date on a card is going to solve that?
Operators that take you to the same "beat-up" place, do it because it is easy for them and the good little sheep they have as customers continue filling up their boats.
Operators that treat you like you are a drooling idiot, obviously don't get enough negative responses from the herd. Most likely their tips don't suffer as a direct result of that type of behavior.
This problem may be the result of badly trained divers but that ship has sailed. The releases you have to sign for them to take your money will not get shorter. Just like their insurance premiums will not cost less (not that it matters to a rec diver).
If your conclusion is that diving is boring, that's just cool. Will you be selling your gear? I'm always in the look out for HP tanks ijs.
Now you are not the first diver that suddenly realizes that the mainstream system is a load of BS.
I had that epiphany a couple of decades ago. I realized that my patience level does not meet the requirements for dealing with the average cattle boat, and was I to continue giving them my money the odds of ending up arrested were climbing rapidly.
So the research began, at the end my only solution was to get my own boat and only use charters when I go on trips, and even then only use charters recommended by people I know have similar requirements. I still get the attitudes, specially if well intentioned friend burns the operator ear telling them that my husband and I can dive. But as long as they don't touch me or my gear I can ignore them for a dive or two.
My diving dreams have been adjusted from "I want to dive every possible location in the planet" to "I want to dive every inch of reef I can get to with my boat" I'm already old so as long as I have 30 to 50 years worth of locations is good enough, plus I don't keep logs, I'll forget some areas and would be fine diving them again.
We all have different levels of experience and training. For some both factors go hand in hand for others is heavily one-sided. But boring? I don't know where that fits.
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