Should Cert Cards be for life? My cert cards seem to be worthless!

[scagrotto]

If you refuse to change the model, then yes...you are correct in that you cannot raise your course price.

Would you suggest that all of the auto makers sell only cars that cost $50,000 and more? The percentage of people who will pay $1000 or more for an OW course is akin to the percentage of people who will (or can) buy expensive cars. Some providers can cater to that segment of the market, but that market isn't big enough for everybody. Auto makers are at least lucky enough that almost everybody wants their product, and almost all of the market wants something better than a Yugo.

I'm a dry caver (my wife says I can't take up cave diving unless we get divorced). I took over 1000 students on beginner caving trips for my college outing club, and virtually every single person had a good time. Almost everyone who joined the club wanted to try it (it was even more popular than the beginner rock climbing trips), but only a very small handful went caving more than 3 or 4 times. There are plenty of other activities where the number of people who will try it will always be much higher than the number of people who will really pursue it, and diving is one of them.

No matter how much advertising and how many pretty pictures the dive industry puts in front of people only a small percentage will take an OW course. Most of those people are going to use cost as a major factor in deciding who gets their business, and they're going to want a class that's fairly short and simple. You can make the course faster, and you can let people study at home instead of sitting in a class for a few Saturdays to make it a few bucks cheaper and to suck in some people who can't be bothered to exert a bit more effort. You can also offer a product that costs more, both in effort and money, and tell people why that's a better choice, but most are going to opt for cheap and easy and if you don't sell it to them somebody else will. After the course, a lot of those people won't continue diving no matter what you do, and a lot more wouldn't have taken the course in the first place if they couldn't do their checkout dives on their tropical vacation. It's just the nature of the sport.

I'm sure a lot of the people who stop diving would continue under some circumstances, but a lot of that just isn't under the control of the dive industry. One of the biggest factors is disposable income (which isn't going up for a substantial percentage of people). Those who are warm water divers don't all live where the water is warm and clear, and most can't manage more than one vacation per year. Another is that many (probably most?) divers have non-diving spouses, and even more have non-diving children. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that's going to make it that much harder to go diving. Of course it also means there's some market potential in getting the rest of the family to become divers, but that runs up against cost even if every non-diving family member was interested in starting.

I'm pretty sure that most dive shops are run by divers who found themselves in business rather than business people who happen to be divers, and their business tactics could be better. Still, given the nature of the market I'm pretty sure that the best change in business model that would earn more money for most dive shop owners is to get into a different business.

 

[tomfcrist]

Would you suggest that all of the auto makers sell only cars that cost $50,000 and more? The percentage of people who will pay $1000 or more for an OW course is akin to the percentage of people who will (or can) buy expensive cars. Some providers can cater to that segment of the market, but that market isn't big enough for everybody. Auto makers are at least lucky enough that almost everybody wants their product, and almost all of the market wants something better than a Yugo.

I'm a dry caver (my wife says I can't take up cave diving unless we get divorced). I took over 1000 students on beginner caving trips for my college outing club, and virtually every single person had a good time. Almost everyone who joined the club wanted to try it (it was even more popular than the beginner rock climbing trips), but only a very small handful went caving more than 3 or 4 times. There are plenty of other activities where the number of people who will try it will always be much higher than the number of people who will really pursue it, and diving is one of them.

No matter how much advertising and how many pretty pictures the dive industry puts in front of people only a small percentage will take an OW course. Most of those people are going to use cost as a major factor in deciding who gets their business, and they're going to want a class that's fairly short and simple. You can make the course faster, and you can let people study at home instead of sitting in a class for a few Saturdays to make it a few bucks cheaper and to suck in some people who can't be bothered to exert a bit more effort. You can also offer a product that costs more, both in effort and money, and tell people why that's a better choice, but most are going to opt for cheap and easy and if you don't sell it to them somebody else will. After the course, a lot of those people won't continue diving no matter what you do, and a lot more wouldn't have taken the course in the first place if they couldn't do their checkout dives on their tropical vacation. It's just the nature of the sport.

I'm sure a lot of the people who stop diving would continue under some circumstances, but a lot of that just isn't under the control of the dive industry. One of the biggest factors is disposable income (which isn't going up for a substantial percentage of people). Those who are warm water divers don't all live where the water is warm and clear, and most can't manage more than one vacation per year. Another is that many (probably most?) divers have non-diving spouses, and even more have non-diving children. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that's going to make it that much harder to go diving. Of course it also means there's some market potential in getting the rest of the family to become divers, but that runs up against cost even if every non-diving family member was interested in starting.

I'm pretty sure that most dive shops are run by divers who found themselves in business rather than business people who happen to be divers, and their business tactics could be better. Still, given the nature of the market I'm pretty sure that the best change in business model that would earn more money for most dive shop owners is to get into a different business.

Conversely, do you think that just because people are frugal, I should have to pay my Instructors pennies per hour? Inflation is a bitch. If you cant afford to Dive.....Sorry, that doesn't mean Im going to teach you for basically free. I hate to tell you, but this is an expensive sport...that isn't going to change.

Most people are paying $600-800 for an OW course in these parts... Class=$250, Books=$75, Mask/fins/snorkel/weights=$250, Gear rental for OW= $200, Site entry fees=$50, etc......

Why not charge what the course is worth and not nickel and dime the customer? Explain to them what they are getting, and why there is value in it. Trust me it works a lot better than just saying "You are better off taking a course with me".

 

[Akimbo]

Should Cert Cards be for life? The basic question is a little academic. C-cards are currently issued without expiration dates and that isn’t likely to change. The real question is what is the practical value of a C-card in the first place? For the great majority of divers they are required to buy air and Nitrox fills, rent gear, and get on dive boats.

Most dive operators look at the card(s) and might also look at logbooks, talk to you, and observe your dive gear to help assess your recent experience. That tells them how closely they should monitor you or which dive sites to avoid. A re-issued C-card won’t change that since that bit of plastic still won’t tell them if you are an accident waiting to happen or not, just like the original card.

 

[Ana]

Completely different paradigms make the comparison difficult to make. I'm reminded of a trip I took a few years back where I shared a boat with a couple who had been diving since the '70's. Their gear reflected their training ... neither used a pressure gauge, and both only had one second stage on their regulators. Their typical dive involved staying down until he ran out of air, then she would buddy-breathe with him off of her tank to the surface, they would manually inflate their BCDs, and end the dive. They told me they'd been diving this way for 40 years ... it's how they were trained. Does that somehow make them better divers than the person who's taught to monitor their air, and to deal with OOA emergencies by handing off a spare regulator? Or does it just make them lucky that they haven't yet run into a situation that's beyond their ability to deal with it?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob do you truly believe they have been "lucky" for 40 years?

I mean, if I was the wife I'd either get him a gauge or a bigger tank, because I couldn't handle getting my dives shorten each and every time for 40 fr@#$ing years but I doubt that you can call it luck.

They have a procedure they follow and it works for them, is not better that your modern diver, but anything that works for that long deserves to be called a proven system, not luck.

 

[TSandM]

Although I strongly believe that a degree of currency is important in diving, I do not think a recertification process would solve the OP's issue. Just because someone has been recently recertified does not mean they are experienced or good. And, because of the attrition in this sport, the number of new divers will always be greater than the number of long-term folks. Since a boat that carries 20 people has to go someplace where all 20 can dive, it seems to me that any such boat is likely to hit the lowest common denominator.

But there is also a component of the diver himself. "Boring" is in the eye of the beholder. What are you looking for, and how are you looking for it? You rant about "shallow" sites -- what's wrong with shallow dives? Me, I love dives where my gas lasts forever and I don't have to think much about deco. And even in places where I don't find the diving really breathtaking, I do find that going slowly and looking carefully can often be productive in quite a lot of marine life I otherwise would not have seen.

There are ways to avoid beginner dives. Go to God's Pocket -- there really aren't any up there. Charter your own boat and fill it -- I had a pair of friend in Southern California who did this with the Peace boat, which holds 20+ divers, and for three years they filled the boat with experienced, no-drama divers, and we had a ball. Build a trip out of friends -- we've done this a bunch of times, and if you book with an operator that runs 6-packs, it's not too hard to have your own boat.

I don't see any way that a certification system is going to guarantee that a dive operator can be confident in any given diver's skills, and the demographics of the sport are always going to push large boats toward easier sites (or at least sites with easy options). And we know in horseback riding that the person who shows up and demands a "spirited" horse, because he's got a ton of experience, usually needs the safest animal in the string.

 

[flots am]

Completely different paradigms make the comparison difficult to make. I'm reminded of a trip I took a few years back where I shared a boat with a couple who had been diving since the '70's. Their gear reflected their training ... neither used a pressure gauge, and both only had one second stage on their regulators. Their typical dive involved staying down until he ran out of air, then she would buddy-breathe with him off of her tank to the surface, they would manually inflate their BCDs, and end the dive. They told me they'd been diving this way for 40 years ... it's how they were trained. Does that somehow make them better divers than the person who's taught to monitor their air, and to deal with OOA emergencies by handing off a spare regulator? Or does it just make them lucky that they haven't yet run into a situation that's beyond their ability to deal with it?

I sometimes dive with a guy who's been in the water since dirt was invented.

He's not dead yet, and can obviously take care of himself, but I'm not all that sure he'd be useful as a buddy either.

flots.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob do you truly believe they have been "lucky" for 40 years?

I mean, if I was the wife I'd either get him a gauge or a bigger tank, because I couldn't handle getting my dives shorten each and every time for 40 fr@#$ing years but I doubt that you can call it luck.

They have a procedure they follow and it works for them, is not better that your modern diver, but anything that works for that long deserves to be called a proven system, not luck.

I actually made no attempt to express what I believe ... other than my initial comment which is that they were trained under a different paradigm, and therefore it's difficult to make comparisons.

I wasn't making a statement ... I was asking a question.

We've all known people who successfully practiced decades of risky behavior without bad consequences ... does that somehow make them more skilled than those who don't?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tomfcrist]

We've all known people who successfully practiced decades of risky behavior without bad consequences ... does that somehow make them more skilled than those who don't?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sometimes yes....in most cases no.

 

[Akimbo]

… We've all known people who successfully practiced decades of risky behavior without bad consequences ... does that somehow make them more skilled than those who don't?...

Apples and oranges. The fact that they were trained to buddy breathe, properly make free ascents and practice them, and a mentality of being self-reliant can’t be compared to divers that don’t possess the knowledge, skills, or demonstrated panic resistance. Therefore, they have not been practicing risky behavior even though a new diver trained under the current highly abbreviated standards would be.

 

[Zieg]

We've all known people who successfully practiced decades of risky behavior without bad consequences ... does that somehow make them more skilled than those who don't?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

True, but then again, who's to say or judge just what is 'risky business'. That is just what is happening in another thread about solo diving. Some people tend to judge solo diving and other practices as risky because they feel that it is so and don't really understand the behavior. They ask questions but many never truly listen to or understand the answers.