Servicing Xstreams at home - Tips and Tricks?

[Frogman82]

Ah so that's what's with the ball. I think that is mandatory from a note I saw on silentexplorers.com so really hoping that is what I'll find inside.

I'd not be going above 80% though and if I do it's likely a different regulator I'll use for the stage.
It's only for under 40% O2.

Can you tell me which of the special tools from scuba clinic tools you're refering to? Might be of interest! Thanks.

Sorry, it was scuba service tools I bought mine from. Here is a youtube link to the one I have

Poseidon 2. stage tool

I specifically asked Poseidon about the ball, and they said it´s only recommended to replace it if the reg sees high O2, or if it is damaged. If it is a steel one and it is in good condition, it is ok to use it if you only dive air or standard 32%ish nitrox mixes.

 

[Bigbella]

Concerns
The service manual states torque values for various parts. My friend doesn't bother with a torque wrench. I got myself one, though, that goes 2Nm-24Nm.
I know it's not precise or great, but I'll use it once or twice a year and the manual states +-1Nm at all the low torque requirements (so up to 33% tolerance)
Additionally, the manual had a torque value for the stem of 20Nm originally, changed to 30Nm in a later revision, so clearly it's passable at a wide range.

I have worked on Poseidon for years and any laissez-faire attitude toward proper torque values is the king of bad ideas.

I have seen regulators reduced to near paperweights from, typically, over-torquing and internal damages; that, or valve stems working their way loose, while still on a tank, from insufficient tightening. Brass is notoriously soft and threads easily trashed (see below right, after a so-called US 150.00 shop "servicing"); and your friend who "doesn't bother with a torque wrench" is a primary reason, among many, why almost no one, outside of myself, has serviced any of our gear in decades.

Admittedly, Poseidon has revised their service manuals a bit over the years -- typically just lowered the IPs across the board; but don't make the mistake that they somehow allow for any "ballpark" torque settings. They do not -- and there is no critical setting that allows for a thirty-three percent variance.

Read both Appendices A and B, covering O2 risk comprehension; appropriate o-rings and lube; the 40% rule; upstream seize of gas issues, etc in the latest Xstream manual. Heed also Vance Harlow's memorable quote (taken from a recent post) from the Oxygen Hacker's Companion, when it comes to working and /or cutting corners with enriched O2: "Don't expect me to tell you that it's OK. It's one of those things that you may get away with ten or a hundred times, but if on the thousandth time it blows up in your face you're going to feel pretty stupid in those last micro-seconds."

Back when I was doing a bit more dedicated O2 cleaning than nowadays, I worked in front of a laminar flow hood (see below), fitted with a squirrel cage motor, for both drying and assembly, after ultrasonic cleaning -- something that I had originally cobbled together for tissue culture purposes, as an itinerant lab monkey.

Do yourself a big favor and purchase some Poseidon or Scuba Clinic aftermarket tools, and invest in a torque wrench of an appropriate range, since replacement parts do not come cheaply . . .

 

[tbone1004]

I have worked on all models of Poseidon for years and any laissez-faire attitude toward torque values is the king of bad ideas. I have seen regulators reduced to paperweights from over-torquing and internal damages. Brass is notoriously soft and threads easily trashed; and your friend who "doesn't bother with a torque wrench" is a chief reason why almost no one, outside of myself, has serviced any of my gear in decades.

Admittedly, Poseidon has revised their service manuals over the years, but don't make the mistake that they somehow allow for some "ballpark" torque settings. They do not.

Do yourself a favor and purchase some Poseidon or Scuba Clinic aftermarket tools, and invest in a torque wrench in an appropriate range . . .

The Xstreams were designed in Solidworks so the torque settings are all modeled, no reason to update them from their original design parameters...

 

[MBaadsgaard]

If anything, I think the Xstreams are easier to service than the older stuff.



The first service I did with a torque wrench, then I switched to doing it by hand. I talked to a very experienced regulator tech, who shall remain nameless, that said they just did it all by hand.

That said, there is something to be said for having a developed sense of wrenching first. My partner's idea of fastening is "torque until yield". If you don't have one, use the torque wrench until you develop it.

These things don't live in a high-vibration environment, as long as the parts that need to be tight are tight, they'll be fine.



Only special tool I use on the Xstream first stage, is a custom pin-spanner to get the cap that lives under the diaphragm off (and back on). I don't think you can disassemble/reassemble it any other way. I machined my own, but you can get the official one for $100: Silent Explorers Maple Grove Minnesot United States Online SCUBA

It's just the round part, with 2 pins in it.

Ooooh do you have dimensions on that tool? pin thickness and spacing, outer diameter..?
Would be very appreciated.

The first stage sockets are required, and the second stage special tool kit is highly recommended.

If you ever intend to have regulators over 40% it is considered best practice to treat all regulators as if they are O2 clean, especially the first stages. The seconds don't matter in terms of being O2 clean or not, but you do not want contamination between O2 clean and non-O2 clean regulators so it is best to just treat it as all or nothing.

Right, I got the second stage one sorted, I'll look into the first stage one.

And about the O2 cleanliness. Do you reckon I am going about this right?
The way I see it is that I get a practice run with the regs that only go to 40%, meaning I also get time to figure out how to arrange the work etc. Then when there is a deco stage kit I might be self-servicing later I will know how to do it confidently. Only concern being whether I have the right practice, since I can't "test" if I did it right afterwards.

 

[MBaadsgaard]

I have worked on all models of Poseidon for years and any laissez-faire attitude toward torque values is the king of bad ideas. I have seen regulators reduced to paperweights from over-torquing and internal damages. Brass is notoriously soft and threads easily trashed; and your friend who "doesn't bother with a torque wrench" is a chief reason why almost no one, outside of myself, has serviced any of my gear in decades.

Admittedly, Poseidon has revised their service manuals over the years, but don't make the mistake that they somehow allow for some "ballpark" torque settings. They do not.

Do yourself a favor and purchase some Poseidon or Scuba Clinic aftermarket tools, and invest in a torque wrench in an appropriate range . . .

The Xstreams were designed in Solidworks so the torque settings are all modeled, no reason to update them from their original design parameters...

Re-checking I found the table in the earlier manual did not correspond to the values listed in the assembly steps. It really is 30Nm. No worries, the first torque wrench will still serve fine for the 3 and 6Nm torques.

 

[iointerrupt]

Ooooh do you have dimensions on that tool? pin thickness and spacing, outer diameter..?

This is my homemade spanner. Note the hex-end for attaching a torque wrench to, if one is in such a mood.

Center-to-center spacing between the pins is 18.0mm. Pins themselves are 0.0855", pins are ~0.100" long. Now I don't have the official tool, so all those measurements are made up by me.

Both the center-to-center spacing, and pin diameter are critical dimensions. As Bigbella points out, the mating parts are made out of brass, if they have been torqued in real tight, and the pin spanner is a loose fit, you will end up simply smearing the holes.

 

[MBaadsgaard]

View attachment 787093

This is my homemade spanner. Note the hex-end for attaching a torque wrench to, if one is in such a mood.

Center-to-center spacing between the pins is 18.0mm. Pins themselves are 0.0855", pins are ~0.100" long. Now I don't have the official tool, so all those measurements are made up by me.

Both the center-to-center spacing, and pin diameter are critical dimensions. As Bigbella points out, the mating parts are made out of brass, if they have been torqued in real tight, and the pin spanner is a loose fit, you will end up simply smearing the holes.

I love that you're giving the big dimension in mm and then pin diameter in inches
Thanks a lot mate. I'll do some work on it and if there's any challenge whatsoever I see a tool can be had for $20 which is very reasonable

 

[MBaadsgaard]

I have worked on Poseidon for years and any laissez-faire attitude toward torque values is the king of bad ideas.

I have seen regulators reduced to near paperweights from, typically, over-torquing and internal damages; that, or valve stems working their way loose, while on a tank, from lack of tightening. Brass is notoriously soft and threads easily trashed (see below right, after a so-called shop "servicing"); and your friend who "doesn't bother with a torque wrench" is a chief reason why almost no one, outside of myself, has serviced any of my gear in decades.

Admittedly, Poseidon has revised their service manuals a bit over the years, typically just lowered the IPs across the board; but don't make the mistake that they somehow allow for any "ballpark" torque settings. They do not -- and there is no critical setting that allows for a thirty-three percent variance.

Read both Appendices A and B, covering O2 risk comprehension; appropriate o-rings and lube; the 40% rule; upstream seize of gas issues, etc in the latest Xstream manual. Heed also Vance Harlow's memorable quote (taken from a recent post) from the Oxygen Hacker's Companion, when it comes to working and /or cutting corners with enriched O2: "Don't expect me to tell you that it's OK. It's one of those things that you may get away with ten or a hundred times, but if on the thousandth time it blows up in your face you're going to feel pretty stupid in those last micro-seconds."

Back when I was doing a bit more dedicated O2 cleaning than nowadays, I worked in front of a laminar flow hood (see below), fitted with a squirrel cage motor, for both drying and assembly, after ultrasonic cleaning -- something that I had originally cobbled together for tissue culture purposes, as an itinerant lab monkey.

Do yourself a big favor and purchase some Poseidon or Scuba Clinic aftermarket tools, and invest in a torque wrench of an appropriate range, since replacement parts do not come cheaply . . .

I gotta say, despite the wall of text here, you're not telling me an awful lot.
+- 1Nm out of 3Nm is 33%, I know that much.
You talk about a laminar flow setup. So.. Is this a must? Or are you just showing off your creations to feel proud about it?

The quote is also kind of pointless. What's the purpose? To scare me out of asking the questions?
Also, let me finish that quote for you, from the book:
"Don't expect me to tell you it's OK. It's one of those things that you may get away with ten or a hundred times, but if on the thousandth time it blows up in your face you're going to feel pretty stupid in those last micro-seconds. Rather, take it to mean one doesn't have to be overly intimidated. Oxygen cleaning, it appears, is not rocket science, as we've been led to believe in the past, but rather kitchen science - a matter of detergent, hot water and common sense."


There has been some really nice and helpful replies with good information, but I fail to see how this one helps besides saying "Buy more gear".

 

[Bigbella]

I gotta say, despite the wall of text here, you're not telling me an awful lot.
+- 1Nm out of 3Nm is 33%, I know that much.
You talk about a laminar flow setup. So.. Is this a must? Or are you just showing off your creations to feel proud about it?

The quote is also kind of pointless. What's the purpose? To scare me out of asking the questions?
There has been some really nice and helpful replies with good information, but I fail to see how this one helps besides saying "Buy more gear".

I am not out to sell anything; am no dealer -- and that 3 Nm torque setting that you had mentioned is nothing critical.

The laminar flow hood, I simply had on hand for the last decade or more and pressed it into use, when I wasn't doing that much lab work. No, it's not a must; but since I essentially had a clean room on hand, in a walk-in closet, I'd be a colossal fool not use it -- and, nowadays do all of my regulator drying and assembly there. I've done "oxygen-cleaning" for quite a few years on many regulators and manifolds; have less than a two percent contamination rate, in terms of the hood's original tissue culture use; but still get a bit of the respectful willies any time a highly "rich" valve is turned.

Doing this in someone's breakfast nook or basement, ain't the greatest idea, considering the lengths that others have gone, for safety's sake.

Also, working with O2-related materials, any airborne particulates -- even dust and mites, etc -- are a legitimate and a combustible concern; and I had seen enough O2 regulator cleanings done in that granular manner in the past.

From the Xstream manual:

"Both Xstream Deco and Xstream Duration are engineered for oxygen use, assembled and cleaned in a clean room environment, made up by materials chosen to expose the lowest possible risk x failure-effect product, and are tested and approved for oxygen use . . .

"It is strictly prohibited to use the Poseidon Xstream Deco/Duration with oxygen . . . without being fully trained and certified in the use of oxygen by a recognized training agency. Failure to have such training and certification could lead to death or serious personal injury." [ergo, "those last micro-seconds."]

I flippantly mentioned Vance Harlow, only because you were asking about O2 cleaning, an advanced topic for the majority of those on SB, coming from a guy(?) who has never worked with enriched gas; seemingly has never cracked open a Poseidon regulator and balks at the notion of using proper tools or even the appropriate service kits to do so.

Seems like a volatile recipe to me . . .

 

[MBaadsgaard]

I am not out to sell anything; am no dealer -- and that 3 Nm torque setting that you mentioned is nothing critical.

The laminar flow hood, I simply had on hand for the last decade or more and pressed it into use, when I wasn't doing that much lab work. No, it's not a must; but since I had a clean room on hand, I'd be a fool not use it -- and, nowadays do all of my regulator drying and assembly there. Also, working with O2-related materials, any airborne particulates -- even dust, mites, etc -- are a legitimate and a combustible concern; and I had seen enough O2 regulator cleaning done in that manner in the past.

From the Xstream manual:

"Both Xstream Deco and Xstream Duration are engineered for oxygen use, assembled and cleaned in a clean room environment, made up by materials chosen to expose the lowest possible risk x failure-effect product, and are tested and approved for oxygen use . . .

"It is strictly prohibited to use the Poseidon Xstream Deco/Duration with oxygen . . . without being fully trained and certified in the use of oxygen by a recognized training agency. Failure to have such training and certification could lead to death or serious personal injury." [ergo, "those last micro-seconds."]

I flippantly mentioned Vance Harlow, only because you were asking about O2 cleaning, an advanced topic for the majority of those on SB, coming from a guy(?) who has never worked with enriched gas; seemingly has never cracked open a Poseidon regulator and balks at the notion of using proper tools or even service kits to do so.

Seems like a volatile recipe to me . . .

Nice.. A quote from the same people who would tell me I can't service my own reg in the first place.
I bought the tools to spec, I got my OEM service kits, what the hell is the idea behind paying more for the tools than a new set of regulators?

Honestly, if you're not gonna contribute, then don't bother writing.