Seeking the DIR Answer: Must DIR Shops be Committed?

[RTodd]

really? cause I've had my Eclipse almost that long, I thought.

I wonder if its a classic yet. ...could I have a "first edition?"

well, I appreciate the PMs that cite all the "other DIR examples"...it certainly is NOT limited to DIR shops.

Take here for example. Do you think there is ONE operator (mostly PADI) that briefs people not to penetrate our wrecks? We have five wrecks or so..all deep, over 100 ft anyway. "Advanced Intros" buzzing through them all day/night long. I'm just a little exasperated with the public faces people put on all across the board, all areas of diving. "Do not penetrate unless you are trained"...then the next day said people are whipping through there with all their tourists in a line, at 100 dollars a pop. I feel like I'm in the fairytale "The Emperor's New Clothes" a lot of days.

Maybe because I am honest about what I do and take a little heat, I am feeling a bit indignant. I don't understand saying one thing and doing another..why not just dive the way you want and practice whatever you preach? I know some people DO, I wish it were more.

Wrecks can be territorial...so it is an issue in some places weather people want to face that or not.

I realize I'm off DIR topic, have mercy.

You really need to let it go. My understanding of the shop in question is that they don't really "get" DIR anyway. So, your example sucks. A good dive operation will promote DIR principles of a safety and team oriented dive regardless of whether or not it is DIR. (There aren't that many dive operations that even accomplish this.)

As has been stated in numerous other posts, everything else is economic reality. They couldn't make a DIR only boat work in Ft. Lauderdale. It sure wouldn't work in Hawaii. If you want to run a dive operation you have to cater to all divers which means that a strict DIR interpretation of what is allowed of the divers is impossible.

I have only dived one of the wrecks on Oahu, but I suspect they are all of the same, completely stripped out newbie safe variety which has openings everywhere. Allowing newbies to swim through one room isn't ideal, but it is safer than, for example, some of the high current dives done every day in other parts of the world with newer divers. If the divers want to do it, not allowing it when everyone else does hurts business. If you have read say, one of my other posts, you should know I don't necessarily agree with taking very inexperienced divers on such a dive because it sets a bad example but even I recognize the economic reality that it will happen.

 

[Cacia]

A good dive operation will promote DIR principles of a safety and team oriented dive regardless of whether or not it is DIR. (There aren't that many dive operations that even accomplish this.)

okay...just checking

My understanding of the shop in question is that they don't really "get" DIR anyway.

well, thank-you, that is a relief.

TSANDM...if you want to move me to Whine and Cheese, it's okay.

You really need to let it go.

yea, its out of bounds and out of scope to ask certain questions.

completely stripped out newbie safe variety

Oh, I did not know that.
Hmm, I could post pictures of the engine room route or under the grates but, I'm not wanting to push this too far.

If the divers want to do it, not allowing it when everyone else does hurts business.

I see that very clearly. Thanks for at least having the conversation and not trying to tell me I have sour grapes ot I am a disturbed person for asking, lol.

 

[seiff]

well then, I think the whole thing is a big marketing ploy.

because ...how can you require the divers to be diving with only DIR divers in SP jetfins, etc, etc "compliance" forever a central issue "ha ha..WE leave strokes at the dock" and then dive a boatload of strokes for profit the next day?

and yet the shop can make money diving new divers anywhere PADI permits?

Doesn't there seem to be a "Fundamental flaw" here? The divers must commit to an oath, the DIR operators don't?

This, for me, is the true litmus test.

Don't ever rule number one me again, please.


Sorry,... I am slow on the uptake. But I eventually figure things out.
I'm hearing Smooth Operator by Sade in the background.

"Coast to coast, LA to Chicago...."

You original question was very loaded...it was, in fact, Troll bait and people took it. So, just to irritate you, I WILL rule-number-one you again. "Don't dive with Strokes". That's it right? (I'm a DIR wannabe so I'm pretty sure). But, I have also never seen a STROKE be defined as "someone with split fins" or "a non-DIR diver". A Stroke is someone with an UNSAFE attitude. You can dive safely in ANY (well functioning) equipment, DIR compliant or not. DIR is simply the compulsive refinment of safe diving practices.

Diving DIR gear doesn't make your dive "safe" (safer maybe) and diving non-DIR gear does not make your dive UNSAFE. A skilled diver using his brain makes a dive safe. Thus mixing DIR/REC equipment or revenue sources is not a conflict of interest nor does it make either philosophy a "marketing scheme".

 

[onfloat]

But, I have also never seen a STROKE be defined as "someone with split fins" or "a non-DIR diver".

Maybe you should take a look at some of GI3's old quotes.

Catherine, for the record I have been diving with you and will go with you again!! I don't know how a "wannabe" can Rule #1 anybody. In fact it seems to be the "wannabes" that invoke that rule the most. (Just my perception.)

The fact is, as RTodd stated, the shop we have here is not really DIR, but they are the closest thing I can find. None of their instructors are DIR instructors, but they have done some GUE/5thd-x training. You and I know that, that's not where their focus is though. The DIR instructors they do bring out will not do the cattle boat dives, but will charter a boat so they can do the dives the way they want with who they want.

Heck, even the GUE instructor I dove with in San Diego was an indendant (as most are, I believe) was loosely associated with a couple of the local shops that were much like the shop we have here. He just did his dives his way. 3 years ago he did let a newbie with less than 10 dives show up for a DIR tweek, though. I'll never forgive him for that!!

Oh and for the record, it was cheaper for me to buy DIR gear than other gear, by about $1000.00, including a drysuit, and I'm now outfiting my daughter with gear and it's not going to be more than $700.00 total.

 

[Vayu]

No shop is DIR even if they pretend to be. Most people who claim to be DIR aren't. Many people who sell the philosophy do not abide by safe diving standards. Catherines question is valid because she assumed like many others that there should be some consistency amongst those that dive this way and those who run the boats or sell the classes and gear. This is not the case because dive shop owners and employees are generally there to make money and not to help you dive safely. This goes double for shops that are associated with GUE. All the people in this thread who are taking offense to the question are obviously bothered by it in some way. They should look within themselves instead of lashing out at the poster.

I have only dived one of the wrecks on Oahu, but I suspect they are all of the same, completely stripped out newbie safe variety which has openings everywhere. Allowing newbies to swim through one room isn't ideal, but it is safer than, for example, some of the high current dives done every day in other parts of the world with newer divers.

Overhead wreck diving should not be considered as a "Safer than" scenario when referencing new divers. These dives can be challenging even for advanced divers. Sounds like you are trying to justify something here. In my opinion, boats should not be taking new divers to these sites.

 

[TSandM]

I don't take offense to the question, but I live in the real world, and I don't see DIR as a religion, where one step from grace and you are forever damned.

I think the DIR philosphy is an excellent way to dive. I like it. I try very hard to observe the principles I've been taught, and follow the procedures and protocols. But I don't always manage that. I did a dive the other night where we didn't do a full dive plan or a full team head-to-toe equipment check. These were people I didn't know -- my first dive with them -- and we were going crabbing in 40 feet of water. I knew how much gas I had, how much they had, and how long we intended to be down. I looked at my buddies and satisfied myself that they were tidy, and I checked all my own gear as I always do. Would my Fundies instructor have been happy with me? No. Did my Fundies instructor go diving one day where he was being towed around on somebody else's scooter? Yes. Thinking divers make risk-benefit decisions all the time. Nobody's "pure DIR". I'll bet JJ's jumped in the water without doing the GUE EDGE thing on occasion . . .

Vayu, I find it sad that you were initially very sold on the DIR approach, and something has disillusioned you to the point of being angry. I learned in my teens, with respect to religion, that people are human and you do the best you can to get by, and it isn't always adhering strictly to principles you may approve of and even try to pass on to others.

DIR's a good system. Sainthood is not required.

 

[MeiLing]

IVayu, I find it sad that you were initially very sold on the DIR approach, and something has disillusioned you to the point of being angry. I learned in my teens, with respect to religion, that people are human and you do the best you can to get by, and it isn't always adhering strictly to principles you may approve of and even try to pass on to others.

I think like religion, DIR, for a number of folks, becomes a position on which to look down their noses at others to justify their being. Because of that, others view even quiet, devout believers with suspicion for fear that any moment they'll begin proselytizing.

 

[netmage]

I think like religion, DIR, for a number of folks, becomes a position on which to look down their noses at others to justify their being. Because of that, others view even quiet, devout believers with suspicion for fear that any moment they'll begin proselytizing.

DIR or not..., there are some wingnuts out there who do some unsafe stuff with coorelation to fatalities. If we can learn from these mistakes; shouldn't we?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

DIR's a good system. Sainthood is not required.

But like all systems ...

a) it has its drawbacks, and
b) it ain't for everybody

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RiverRat]

I think like religion, DIR, for a number of folks, becomes a position on which to look down their noses at others to justify their being. Because of that, others view even quiet, devout believers with suspicion for fear that any moment they'll begin proselytizing.

I've noticed that as well. It's too bad as it gives the rest of the DIR community a bad rap.
I asked, while learning some DIR stuff, that if I showed up at a place to dive, as a single diver, would I be able to hookup with some DIR divers to practice with. The answer I got was " ahhh you could.....but I doubt you'd find anyone there wiilling to dive with you".
What kind of crap is that? Do you have to take fundies before anyone will dive with you, so can you practice, so that you can be better prepared for fundies? I've heard half the divers in fundies shouldn't even be there, skill wise. I'm sorry I was just put off by that. Like all of a sudden, all of my diving experience and skills to date meant nothing. BS. I was also a bit put off by the video reviews. Every now and then a camera found it's way pointing to some rather large guts from another class in the pool. It seemed funny but then it got a little un-professional in my opinion. I realize DIR is a holistic system but let's not make fun of others to prove a point. All the while taking money from overweight divers. Coach them. Give them advise but act accordingly. It's this crap that hurts DIR.