Mopar
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Would the instructor be held accountable if the OP was not in his class? I dont see how the instructor could be held accountable.
Scuba Police @ Philadelphia Quarry, TN (Lambertsen rebreather trials)
- Thread starter Kimsey0
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Would the instructor be held accountable if the OP was not in his class? I dont see how the instructor could be held accountable.
Scubajane,
First, welcome here. I appreciate your opinion here, and am very thankful that this instructor helped you overcome your aquaphobia. Once someone comes to know that the water actually supports you, and that you are in control and can move in three dimensions, the fear fades and an appreciation of this environment underwater comes into play.
Saying that, l see that some here have been saying this instructor overstepped his bounds. They may be right in some sense and wrong in others. From my reading, this is a private quarry. As such, the owner can set any rules he/she wishes (I don't know which the owner is). If the owner has empowered his instructors to ensure that all divers adhere to certain rules, that is his privilege. But, that does not mean that the OP was doing anything unsafe; just that there was this perception on the instructor's part. Perhaps he could have used a different tact on this with better overall results. He could, for instance, have told his students that the diver was diving unconventionally, and told them to wait while he investigated. He has also a duty to his own students, and cannot simply leave them sitting.
As a past instructor, and former pararescueman, and a diver who has been diving since 1959, I must correct one error in your post above. We are not diving "antiques," but "vintage" gear. Many antiques are not serviceable and should not be used today. They are for display only. But vintage scuba gear can be made quite serviceable, and many of the regulators from that era are as good or better than some of today's regulators. The instruction in the 1960s and 1970s was probably more robust, and the divers themselves more in tune with aquatics, than today's divers (for the most part). We did not have BCs yet in the 1960-1970s because we had not yet invented them. But remember that this acronym is for "buoyancy compensator," it is a way of compensating for the loss of buoyancy of the diver's wet suit. That has been lost on many of today's divers, as they dive BCs with dry suits which need no compensation as there is no other harness system commercially available. This leads to multiple LP hoses (one for the dry suit, one for the BC), which are actually in safety lingo more potential "failure points." So today's equipment is really not inherently "more safe" than the equipment in the 1970s. I dove a Mistral regulator on Saturday, and it has a total of six moving parts (the Mistral was the regulator of choice for JY Cousteau too, and the one he elected to use on his last dives--highly modified I might say with a chest mount and probably a LP hose running to it). The Conshelf XIV that was discussed by the OP is actually a very modern regulator, being dived sans LP hose for a BC (which he wasn't wearing) and gauge.
I dove the same configuration on Sunday, using a Healthways Scubair II regulator with a built-in automatic depth-compensated reserve (my J-valve was down and not in use). I also used my Duck Feet fins, which date back to the late 1950s, and are as good as any fin today. I actually did two solo dives Sunday, and had briefed the lifeguards on the dives. I told them how much air I had, and my expected times for getting out and my route (which went through an area of the Clackamas River which kids were jumping from called "High Rocks." I was testing a different underwater swimming technique, and wearing a single steel 72 tank on my second dive. My first dive was with a Healthways SCUBA double hose regulator on a pair of small twins which were about half full. This regulator also has a built-in, calibrated orifice depth-compensated reserve, so the twins J-vale was also down. I had a good first dive, then got the tank on for the second dive. I did my swims, watched little fish underwater, and used that tank up in about 3/4 of an hour. With this reserve, you get the feeling that the regulator is not giving you the air you need as it restricts flow until you go shallower. It basically forces you to surface, and so is fine for regular diving, but not for overhead environments.
I was getting tired anyway, and so surfaced downstream of the lifeguards a few hundred yards. This was an area of picnicing with some immigrant peoples, and there were kids there speaking a language I did not understand, but sounding Korean. Because of the Duck Feet fins, I was not wearing my normal wet suit bootie but rather a thick athletic sock. The fins had done very well, but I needed to carry my sandals with me and was taking them off when I noticed one of the guys start swimming across the river. He was obviously not a strong swimmer, and struggled a bit. Now the water temperature was 58 degrees, and I was wearing the bottoms of my Farmer John and a hood. I studied his swimming, and he would try a modified crawl stroke, then stop and submerge, come back up about ten seconds later and do a bit of dog paddling then try the crawl again. He in short was struggling, and getting noticeably weaker. I threw my sandals up on the rock, put my fins back on, and started swimming out towards him. He went down, and I swam faster. He popped back up, swam again and made a little progress. I was about twenty feet from him when he made it to a rock on the other side of the river.
That's where I caught up with him. We talked for a while. He was cold, but okay. He said he was looking at the little fish, and that in his country (I think either Burma or Thailand) he would swim out and get fish. But he did not swim well, in my opinion. We saw small fish around me (I was in the water and he on a rock), and I told him that they were red-sided shiners. I gave him my mask to look at them with (not really good, as I had my correction built into the lens). But he did see the fish more clearly. I got the mask back, and he decided to swim back across the river. I accompanied him, and blew up my BC (I have my own design, called the Para-Sea BC) so I'd be positively buoyant and not have to drop my 15 pound weight belt if trouble occurred on the swim back. This is about a 75 yard swim, with some of the river moving right along. He was doing pretty well until he got into the current on the other side, and then he made a wrong turn (headed downstream instead of across the current). I turned him around, and told him to swim in this direction (pointing 45 degrees upstream and cross current) so he could make land about 40 feet away. We got there, and he was able to stand and walk back about 50 yards to his family (wife and at least two kids). I swam back (the Duck Feet took me right along as fast as he could walk), and swam back to my sandals. As I was getting out, one of the kids asked whether he could use my fins. He was older, and they fit. I said yes, and so he swam with them, then another and another. It was about 15 minutes before I got out, and climbed the bank to get back to my car. I heard a strange siren, and was wondering if we were about to have an earthquake or something.
Well, I was almost there when a Fish Commission officer I knew came by, and asked how I was doing. I told him about the guy swimming across the river, and my assist. He then got a phone call, and said "I have to take this one!" and excused himself. I got out of my gear, went over to the rest room and noticed the ambulance there. I wondered what the heck was going on. I used the rest room (negative breathing does something to the system), then went down to the lifeguards. One of the ambulance guys said that the lifeguard had done the right thing, and as I walked up I became aware that they had called an emergency for me not reporting back to them in the time I had predicted. They were initiating a search for me as a "missing diver" because I had not reported back to them in the time I stated I would. When I finally explained what had happened, and the assist I made, the lifeguard said that was a good excuse. He had known some of my background, asked me if I had any heart disease (I didn't) and I told them that aside from being a bit too fat, I was in pretty good health for age 65. But I did give them a scare, and I apologized for that. I also found out that the fish commission officer was talking to the 911 people, and telling them that he was talking to the "missing diver." That was what the siren I had heard was about too! Me!
Anyway, this is how I handle these kinds of situations, not by lecturing someone, but by assisting and ensuring that everyone makes it out okay. Maybe that instructor could read this, and take a bit of a lesson from one of the "vintage" divers.
SeaRat
PS--Upon reading the above, I want to make clear that my intent was not to give the lifeguards heartburn; indeed, they are my friends and I choose to dive there in large part because of their presence. I did not realize how closely they were watching my times Sunday. I told them that I really appreciated their concern for my welfare. But I have a policy--nobody drowns on my river when I'm around if there is any way that I can prevent it. I was thinking of the immigrant man who chose to swim across the river. Many have drowned there doing just that, and he was literally in over his head. My focus was on the assist that I was able to make, and keeping him from turning downstream and going through a chute of rapids in the river. This is what I'd like that instructor to take away from my post. There are many ways to assist people. This is but one example.
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How can McDonalds be sued and lose over someone going to the drive thru ordering hot coffee, putting in their lap; driving away; it spilling and burning them?
How can McDonalds be sued over someone walking into their business; ordering an items on their menu for breakfast, lunch and dinner, every day of the week for that person being obsess?
If I know absolutely that someone has committed murder, am I free and clear as long as I do not say anything, I have no obligation?
Look, I agree with you guys. That in the way KimseyO has presented this "instructor" and the event, the instructor was a B***Head and on a control trip. He absolutely could have handled it in a different way. SeaRat’s approach is much better.
What I do not agree with you on is that simply not saying something gets you out of liability or obligations. Now, had they not had the short conversation before KimseyO's problems and the instructor ignored KimseyO altogether maybe it does. I am not saying the instructor did or did not have a “duty”, either. I am just putting out a different viewpoint.
We are a litigious society in the USA. I can be sued over breaking wind in front of the wrong person.
To me the key question that I think establishes any sort of liability or obligation is: "Are Dive professionals that are on the same site, expected, required and/or obligated to conduct and participate in rescue operations for party's that are not a part of their direct party in the event that some happens?"
If the answer to that is yes, then I think we get into other questions about prior knowledge and what not.
Remember too this was not just about the gear - The instructor did not say anything until there was a problem that put KinseyO sitting on a rock.
While I agree it is ridiculous and wrong for judgement to be for the plaintiff in such a case, you have to understand that McDonalds was involved in some way in the circumstances. This is not the same as a dive instructor being liable for not being involved. By opening his mouth he then made himself party to the situation and potentially liable, not before.
Good grief. Having a gear malfuction or having to adjust ones gear is not a crime!
It's not as though the instructor passed Timsey0 underwater and saw his gear malfuctioning and decided to swim on. Timsey0 was simply working on his gear on the surface (and that's not a crime either).
I am not saying it is a crime. I am saying, that not saying something does not resolve one of a liability or any responsibility. Or remove you from being sued.
What the instructor did actually say was "do not dive". He said it in a way that over stepped authority in general as a Scuba instructor. If Kimsey0 did go ahead and dive and a more sever issue happen which resulted in injury or death, the instructor did more to resolve any liability(or potential of) issue by saying "do not dive" then not saying anything at all. He even had mom witness it.
Different question: As just a citizen, I am out running errands; Pull into a parking spot; in the car next to me, is a child; the windows are up; the air conditioning is not running; it is 103 outside;… As long as I do not say anything, I have no obligation?
OR do I need to Call 911, make an attempt to find the car owner; bust the window out.
This exact thing has resulted in 6 child deaths here in Austin this year. Equipment failures in scuba (while not the most common) do lead to panic and death.
The instructor had no way of knowing he was only dropping to 5 ft and testing the gear. All he knew, Kimsey0 was going on a dive and had started a decent.
My point is not saying something does not make you any less responsible or liable. At the same time what you are arguing, Saying something and giving bad or misunderstood advice, does make you more liable as well. It is a two way street, to or to not that is the question.
Just to be clear - I do NOT think the instructor handled it correctly at all! Even if granted the Authority by the property owner as SeaRat pointed out might be the case. My only arguments are there are two viewpoint to this; and mostly that not saying something(keeping you bleepin mouth shut) does not resolve you of responsibility.
Anybody can sue for anything. No one can ever "remove himself from being sued". It doesn't mean the suit will be successful though. One can be sued and not be liable. In most such cases the suit is dismissed. One can also be liable and not be sued. A law suit and liability are two different things. Just because one can sue does not mean the other party is liable. Only the courts can determine that.
You're trying to compare a case of imminent, life-threatening danger regarding a helpless victim to an adult simply working on his own personal equipment? I fail to see the similarity. Sorry
Read it again. Timsey0 had surfaced and was fixing his gear when the instructor really got into his interrogation (that's what it was afterall) and harassment (that's what it was afterall) and didn't like the answers (Wah!). That's when he went ballistic. Timsey0 was already aware of the problems and was working on resolving them.
Anyway, some want to try to defend the knucklehead and that's fine. I don't see how this has anything to do with vintage equipment diving any more though.
Getting back to vintage diving equipment, the configurations I wore on Sunday showed me something pretty neat. The Healthways automatic reserve on their SCUBA double hose regs and on their Scubair II single hose reg really do work well. You can still get air, but you know you are getting low by the response of the regulator. It works extremely well in open water. I surfaced Sunday from both dives with about 500 psig in the tanks. Normally, I would take that down and go on the J-reserve valve. In my doubles, that would be a 500 psig reserve divided between two tanks, or 250 psig when equalized. With the Healthways (I was diving my original Healthways, Robert, the one with the membrane exhaust) SCUBA regulator, I wished for it back when I started my dive with the Scubair II. The Scubair II "honked" on some breaths from the second stage, which was really annoying. I got used to it and it only did it at certain times on a deep inhalation. Both of these dives show the practicality of diving sans LP hoses and HP gauges for my type of diving. And, the Duck Feet performed extremely well, without the foot fatigue I was thinking would happen. Now, I've used my Duck Feet in another river. They've been in the Pacific off Okinawa Prefecture (Ryuku Islands of Japan now), Korea, Bermuda, Florida, the US West Coast, and now the Clackamas River.
SeaRat
adurso
Contributor
Before you use MacDonalds lawsuits as examples you may want to research the actual cases...vastly different..
And you do not have a legal obligation to share info with law enforcement
As mentioned anyone can sue anyone for anything, but in order to be held liable a preponderance of evidence must establish certain facts, depending on the basis of the suit.
SeaRat,
That guy is (was
) just someone pretending to be the instructor under discussion, and he was refering to the op in his first post, not you.
OTOH, if he really is the "instructor", that would explain alot
Either way, he has to go.
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Edit: And now it seems he has been escorted out of the building.
That guy is (was
) just someone pretending to be the instructor under discussion, and he was refering to the op in his first post, not you.OTOH, if he really is the "instructor", that would explain alot
Either way, he has to go.
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Edit: And now it seems he has been escorted out of the building.
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