Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[highdesert]

How many monitoring this post have dived with Marcia? I have, but not on the Sunday.

I'm late to this thread, and was shocked when I found it. I communicated with Marcia for a long period before she joined us on a liveaboard in Raja Ampat. Since I have 500 more posts to read, there may be some answers I haven't gotten to yet. But I can say that Marcia was a very deliberate, measured professional in her diving. She was talkative and upbeat on board, but was every bit the educator once she splashed. She dived in a different foursome, so I didn't see her every move, but when I did, I saw her essentially marking the actions of others in her group, like they were her students. Again, there may be answers I haven't gotten to, but I can say thus far that I am surprised to read what I have, that Marcia was apparently straying from her group, and possibly diving a rig she was not totally familiar with. Just seems out of character, from what I saw. Maybe more reading will give me some answers.

 

[Zippsy]

Let's remember that Marcia was on a personal dive trip. She MAY dive one way with students / guests and another when on a personal trip. I'm not saying that she did, but it would not surprise me at all if she did.

 

[lazylady]

It is true that as you age issues can happen. I had a DVT 5 years ago prior to the age of 60. I was lucky and lived through it, many others much younger have not. Mine was the result of a long evacuation drive due to Hurricane Gustav and I was 56 at the time. I also had contributing factors, I was a smoker and I was on hormone therapy. I have since quit smoking and no longer take the horomes. This has cut down on my odds for the future.
Everyone can have vastly different symptoms for a DVT, mine was only swelling and slight pain in the knew. Which is why it was no diagnosed correctly at first, and took over 4 weeks to find out that I had the DVT.

It would do all of us good to learn the things (exercises) we can do while we travel (yes, even on a plane.).
I also suffer from anemia, which can and does cause you to feel colder than normal, especially when diving. I take iron to control this.

Perhaps we can all do ourselves a favour and have a yearly check up, regardless of how good physical shape we think we are in.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Another option on the surface to get more bouyant, but not one most would think about in an emergency unless previously considered and practiced is to break the seal on your drysuit neck and allow air in. Wouldn't this make the drysuit more buoyant than it likely is upon surfacing, after you've likely dumped all air on the ascent? I'm generally pretty shrink wrapped when I get out of the water.
This is something my husband has mentioned to me but I admit that I haven't tried it myself...

I am just reading through this thread, and got to this post. I must say something here, as what is stated is false.

I am not a dry suit diver now, but in the 1980s dove an older-style Aquala Dry Suit. Two thing are apparent in any dry suit. If you open a neck seal, you will let air out of the suit, not allow air in! The water pressure will literally push air out of the suit. With this in mind, the tri-laminate (fabric) dry suit should not be considered a buoyancy device, as it will only hold a certain amount of air before that air bleeds out. The buoyancy depends not on the suit, but on the undergarment used. Buoyancy control at depth is easier, and depends less on the BC with this type of dry suit if used correctly, as adding air to the suit to compensate for the compression of the air in the suit's undergarment should keep the diver in neutral buoyancy. I have no idea whether this has anything to do with this accident, and doubt it, but this statement could not go unanswered.

SeaRat

 

[DandyDon]

I am just reading through this thread, and got to this post. I must say something here, as what is stated is false.

I am not a dry suit diver now, but in the 1980s dove an older-style Aquala Dry Suit. Two thing are apparent in any dry suit. If you open a neck seal, you will let air out of the suit, not allow air in! The water pressure will literally push air out of the suit. With this in mind, the tri-laminate (fabric) dry suit should not be considered a buoyancy device, as it will only hold a certain amount of air before that air bleeds out. The buoyancy depends not on the suit, but on the undergarment used. Buoyancy control at depth is easier, and depends less on the BC with this type of dry suit if used correctly, as adding air to the suit to compensate for the compression of the air in the suit's undergarment should keep the diver in neutral buoyancy. I have no idea whether this has anything to do with this accident, and doubt it, but this statement could not go unanswered.

SeaRat

That was addressed and discussed shortly afterward.

 

[dwhthediver]

... was she using a hog harness? And if so, was she carrying a cutting device?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

From what I can see in the photos, the white pull tabs look like the Sea quest ditch weights and being a rear bladder type would probably make it a Libra or Balance BC. Given the fact that there were no visible release clips as in side release types, it would have been the round center / swivel release clips that need to be pressed in the middle to disengage as found on Seaquest/Aqualung products.

These wings have either 30 or 36 lb of lift depending on size.

With no quick release on the straps, the size of the wing, and the style of weight pouches, I would surmise that is an Aqualung Zuma. Aqualung flat out tells you this is a travel BCD, designed to be used with light wetsuits. Not designed or intended to be used with the weight required for drysuit diving.



I have read all 77 pages of this thread, and I don't want to throw out any wild theories that can't be supported by "facts" as reported. I am surprised though no one else has brought up the issue of the release mechanism on the sure lock II weight piches. Aqualung had a recall on these pouches due to the release mechanism failing. Were her the pre-recall pouches, did she try to release and the mechanism failed? I have a Zuma Pro I use in the pool with students, and the lift is sufficient in the pool in my shorty, but I would hardly consider it adequate for Drysuit diving. I respected Marcia, but I see an avalanche of bad decision making. It was reported that she was using a Latitude 30/30 Drysuit, DUI calls this a "tropical" Drysuit, cut with less room for undergarments than their other drysuits, equipment choices for 60 degree water...0 for 2. These could be contributing factors when she went OOA and the dive went sideways

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I stopped reading the posts at page 49. I've been reading about this for three days now, and felt it was time to get to the end and upend a few theories. Yes, we all know that had the buddy system been strictly adhered to, Marcia may have survived. I have been in the accident investigation process long enough, and investigated enough fatalities, to know that there are always multiple causes to any accident, especially a fatality. But there is one possibility that I don't think has been explored (unless it is on the last 30 pages ).

I am going to postulate that Marcia may have gone unconscious because of a too-tight neck seal which cut off her carotid circulation. I had some facebook posts in The Diver Medic with Dr. Ellen Kop. I'll get to those in a moment.

First, my observation of Marcia's new dive suit with the significant bubble of trapped air. If the neck seal was tight enough to retain that air in an upright position, it was too tight. Normally a dry suit would vent that much air out the neck seal. (Again, this is my hypothesis, and those with more experience with this type of tri-laminant dry suit can feel free to explode my thoughts if your experience is different.)

Second, my posts with Dr. Kop showed that this scenario could occur. Our posts are very interesting in this respect:

Ellen KopI experienced also this lack of supervision from my diving club so I experienced a near drowning accident and woke up in the Hospital 1 hour later. ARDS, ICU one day, a aspiration pneumonia after vomiting. Heavy experience, but I was at home in one week. And after 6 weeks no problems found in my lungs and my physician said I was recovered cystic ally. It's 2 years ago. Mentally it's a foggy experience. Very weird. But I'm happy I'm still alive thanks to an diving instructor below me who has had handled immediately when he found out something was wrong. I still am thankfull to him I'm alive thanks to his fast interference! At the side of the swimming pool, they were talking and not looking to the water surface.

Ellen Kop "Recovered physically" did I mean!

Ellen Kop I was going to swim (no diving gear except for shorty and snorkeling gear, no weight belt). Went to the edge of the swimming pool. I let myself go into the water.
Because of mostly cold water in this swimming pool and I just returned from a Holliday in the Dominican Republic I decided to pull an extra Lycra shirt under my shorty: both for surfing not for diving and both had a high neck seal. Something i never have done before and never will do in the future.
I closed both my neck seals a bit more tighter than usual.
When in the water I started the borstcrawl. I lost consciousness after a few crawls. Black period for a hour.
The problem analyzed: an combination of factors
- dive-reflex,
- hypothermia: after arrival of the ambulance (totally cut my clothes and I was laying naked on a cold and wet swimming pool floor: happy I was "out" and not really experienced this! Not amused when I heard that! Core temperature was dropped to 33 degrees central! Well analyzing that: it saved my life! So not mad afterwards.
- dry near drowning (it's on film, because the instructor beneath me was filming his students)
- insufficient O2 supply by the alarmed club members because I was vomiting (only a small tube near my mouth, darn! Just give a non-rebreather mask and a mayo tube!)
- I inhaled my pizza I ate before. That hurts! My bronchial tree totally burned from the inhaled gastric acid with the pizza.
October 16 at 11:10am via mobile

Ellen KopOh yeah: conclusion about the cause was 2 too tight neck seals.

Ellen Kop The tightened neck seals in combination with the breast crawl could have caused together with a dive reflex (lowering of pulse) an extra lowering in pulse and after that I lost consciousness and lowered accurate tissue oxigination.

• John Ratliff Ellen, I doubt that it was a "diving reflex" situation, although that may have happened later, that caused your unconsciousness. I have had judo training, and we were taught how to chock a person into unconsciousness by pressing on the carotid arteries on either side of the neck. Unconsciousness comes in about 8 seconds. I think probably your shorty suit with the lycra shirt underneath produced the same pressure on your carotid arteries on either side of your wind pipe, and blocked the flow of blood to your brain. The diving reflex you refer to probably happened as you descended, and the core temperature of 33 degrees C (91.4 degrees F) would have protected you as you described, by decreasing the brain's need for oxygen. However, you are quite correct that it was the diving instructor's quick action which saved your life. Thank you for sharing.
  
  Ellen Kop@john: just a quick response to your "diving reflex" comment. This reflex always happens when you put your face in the water.
  Why? The face is the most sensitive place to react to cold water (also when you're wearing a mask!).
  It was a combination of dive reflex and carotic artery massage: breast crawl together with the pressure of the tight neck seals.
  Everything else you say is correct! Thanks.
  
  John Ratliff Hi Ellen, I understand that, but the diving reflex probably had nothing to do with your loss of consciousness.
  
  I have competed in judo (many moons ago), and have rendered an opponent unconscious in the time I stated (about 8 seconds); I have also gained a win in about 4 seconds over a better opponent (he didn't like being chocked).
  
  So my thought is that the tight neck seal was the primary problem, and that the diving reflex was protective for you. The diving reflex, if my years-ago physiology is correct, is more pronounced in babies and children than adults, but it does still occur in adults. I had a new wet suit with a back entry (my first back entry suit--I don't like it that much) with a very tight neck seal that after one dive I cut down so that it did not interfere with my carotid circulation for the same reason that yours probably caused unconsciousness. I was diving solo, and could feel the effects, but luckily realized what was happening and relieved the pressure with my fingers. The older-style suits, with a zipper in front, had a collar which went down to the zipper and avoided pressure on the carotid area. If there is a lesson in our experiences, it is to be aware of this potential problem with current designs of wet suits.

So I think Marcia may have experienced something similar, a tight neck seal blocking the carotid arteries blood passage to the brain, blacked out and with no one there to help, drowned. It would at least explain why no weights were dropped. It would also explain why she wanted to swim in on the bottom--to get horizontal and relieve pressure on her neck seal.

SeaRat

PS, if you want to see this discussed more on The Diver Medic Facebook page (see link above), go to the post by

Chantelle Taylor-Newman


This is very sad.

http://gcaptain.com/year-drowns-aboard-carnival-cruise/

The post has a photo of a Carnival ship, and the above headline. Dr. Kop mentioned her accident in that thread.

 

[Ayisha]

...But there is one possibility that I don't think has been explored (unless it is on the last 30 pages ).

I am going to postulate that Marcia may have gone unconscious because of a too-tight neck seal which cut off her carotid circulation...

Hi John, back in post #117, I asked the question below about marks on her neck since I wondered if she had a carotid sinus reflex. No one seemed to know at the time. Marks may apparently be seen on the neck after this occurs, but a coroner told us in the past that a CSR can't be tested for or detected in an autopsy.

Thank you Almighty Wife, Cave Diver, and Michael.

Almighty Wife, do you know if there were any significant marks on her neck? Thank you.

 

[scubadada]

Disappointing, but expected, that the additional informaiton from the dive group has not been made available. Appears we have all the information we are going to have and posters can continue to post their unsubstantiated hypotheses.

 

[gypsyjim]

Disappointing, but expected, that the additional informaiton from the dive group has not been made available. Appears we have all the information we are going to have and posters can continue to post their unsubstantiated hypotheses.

????????????

Additional information HAS been posted, as it became available.

Also, as explained earlier any official determinations by the government investigations can take an extremely long time, as can the release of the gear, IF it ever happens at all.